As an adult player, why did you not "grow out of gaming"?

[samsonlonghair]

First of all, marketing is overwhelmingly responsible for creating the widespread association between children/adolescents and video games. There is no intrinsic reason why video games should appeal more to children than adults, but as the years went by, home consoles wanted everyone -- children and adults -- to buy into that story. Pushing video games as a demographic identity was brilliant, because it created an emotional investment in all parties: kids were extra motivated to know about and play video games because it was something they "got" and lame grown-ups didn't, and adults absorbed the same advertisements and chose to see themselves not as out-of-touch squares but as necessary authoritarians and the only sane man in the room. This is how brand loyalty/antagonism is built, and is the same phenomenon that makes people so fervently dedicated to their chosen sports teams, favorite fictional character pairings, stores, bands, etc. It makes the choices personal.
[...]
That said, I have never been made to feel that I should be growing out of gaming or am immature for doing it. I've occasionally been made to feel abnormal that I'm a woman who games, though, which is a similar thing -- it's just not relegated to a specific envelope of time in my life.

This post was incredibly insightful and well written.

So here's the equation I now see:

• Marketers frame video games as a male adolescent thing that is disliked by girls, adults, and especially moms; then
  society puts tremendous pressure on boys to become "responsible" manly men, with
  the ultimate achievement of the responsible man being getting a girl -- but
  since it's been established that all adult women, starting with moms, dislike video games,
  it is believed boys will have to ditch the hobby if they want to settle down with a woman and thus become a man.

Right? I mean, this is explains why gaming as a woman is considered a quirk and not a destiny-hobbling fault. This could explain why I was not pressured to grow out of gaming (or at least was able to remain oblivious to such pressure); it was never assumed that I was going to have to impress a lady later on in life.

If this is true, then a huge chunk of the damage and stigma behind video gaming seems to rest squarely on the assumption that women and girls don't game (and that they will also try to sabotage your gaming in one way or another)... which was an essential part of gaming's marketing message for at least a decade.

And this post just blew my flipping mind.

I tip my fancy hat to you, Key. I am impressed by this insight I never could have seen from my own perspective. Well played, ma'am.

I took a walk into Wal*Mart yesterday for the first time in over a year. I'm a big marketing nerd, so I'm fascinated by the floor plan of retail spaces. Wal*Mart is awfully consistent. The floor plan in one Wal*Mart is nearly identical the floor plan in the next. Here's the layout at my local store: the video games are sold right between the other electronics and the boys toys. The girls toys are farther down; the oft-lamented "pink aisle" still persists.

Now from a marketing standpoint, it's usually considered good business to segment your market for practically any product along demographic lines. Gender is one of many demographics. For instance you've certainly heard that Secret deodorant is "Strong enough for a man, pH balanced for a woman." Any rational thinker can see straight through this. There is absolutely no difference between men's deodorant and women's deodorant beyond the product packaging.

But videogames are different from deodorant. Videogames made for boys are different from videogames made for girls. You know why? Because videogames made specifically for girls are kind of awful. Games starring Barbie or the Olson twins are terrible and their poor sales reflect the poor quality of the product. Marketing research indicates that Female gamers are more apt to buy RPG games (especially Warcraft, Pokemon, or Final Fantasy), Lego games, Adventure games (especially Zelda and Assassins Creed), Sim Games (both Sim City and the Sims) and mobile games.

So what would a marketing researcher conclude based on this data? Two conclusions:

• That making games for girls is bad business and
• That females will buy games made for a male audience, but male gamers will not buy games made for a female audience.

There was another form of media that faced a similar marketing problem in the past - cartoons. In the late 1950s and 1960s cartoons like Huckleberry hound, Yogi Bear, and Quickdraw McGraw were relatively gender neutral (despite clearly featuring male main characters). By the 1980s cartoons were vehicles for driving toy sales like Transformers, Ninja Turtles, and Masters of the Universe. Production companies experimented with cartoons specifically for girls. She-Ra princess of power was the mirror anima of He-Man and aired directly after He-man yet garnered consistently lower ratings and consistently lower toy sales. What did marketers in the 80s conclude? That girls will watch boys cartoons, but boys would not watch girls cartoons.

It has taken a whole generation for cartoons about strong female characters (like Korra and the Crystal Gems) to become popular among both genders. A lot of this has to do with more women in the animation industry, and a lot has to do with the increase in quality of the product. Legend of Korra is simply a better product than She-Ra ever was.

So if we hope to see a change in the way videogames are marketed, we need more women working in the game industry (not just critiquing but producing) and higher quality products than Barbie and Olsen twins games.

[Sarge]

Six pages, and I finally get to say something.

I'm not entirely sure why I didn't "grow out of it", but most of my friends certainly did. I think it's a combination of factors. Peer pressure is one, and probably the primary one. In that regard, I'm not as affected by peer pressure. I was already the odd man out at school, and pretty much operated how I wanted to regardless of the expectations of my classmates. I finally got my own NES Christmas of '90, which made me 11 years old. That was actually getting to the point where a lot of kids still played, but not really religiously. So I was already bucking the trend.

I also had to be very creative in obtaining games. With very little money in a year's time, I had to be quite careful and thrifty with my purchases. That's where Nintendo Power was a real help. Now, of course, I did pick up a few games that weren't what I was expecting, but they were few and far between. Most of my games came from pawn shops, thrift stores, and video stores. I figure this difficulty also led to my "collecting" today.

I do agree that marketing had pretty much targeted kids, and that was a primarily Nintendo thing. As such, many parents saw them as just for kids, and there was some pressure on that front to grow out of gaming as well. Plus, a lot of parents pressure their kids to get outside and play, which is a very good thing! I was on some very strict time limits growing up, one hour a day. My brother and I would often pool our time, though, and the other would watch. But still, if the perception is that something is for kids, it's no wonder there's pressure to stop. Funny thing, though... gaming grew up right along with that generation. I remember all the Sega Genesis / Mortal Kombat brouhaha, and the reason there was such a reaction to that is that gaming was primarily targeted to kids. That changed with Sega, and then Sega got out-Sega'd by Sony. So the coming generation is a lot more open to still playing video games, especially since adult tastes were catered to significantly since their childhood.

Me, though, I still routinely play the classics. There's still something about the NES era that I love, and I doubt I'll ever stop playing them, for "kids" be darned. And as others have said here, I just see it as an alternative form of entertainment. I prioritize it over movies and such, and folks don't grow out of that, they just watch more "mature" programming. Gaming isn't really much different.

For those that do enjoy hunting and fishing, I don't begrudge them that one iota. Many of them discover those sports as they get older, and they enjoy them more than gaming. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I say do what makes you happy. For me, that's video gaming, but not exclusively. I really need to start shooting hoops again, I'm very much a big sports guy (at least basketball and football), just not in the gaming realm.

[J T]

So what would a marketing researcher conclude based on this data? Two conclusions:

• That making games for girls is bad business and
• That females will buy games made for a male audience, but male gamers will not buy games made for a female audience.

I would only conclude that the gaming industry has very little clue about how to appeal to a female demographic and that games based on stereotypical ideas about 'what women want' don't perform well.

You put up a great list of games women buy, and the only common thread I see is that they are more inclusive. Go to any Comicon and I guarantee you will see at least a dozen girls in intricate cosplays of the female Shepard from Mass Effect. Bioware has made an effort to be inclusive in their games and to allow their players to have at least some limited options to roleplay whatever gender, sexual orientation, or race they want. I think every group wants to feel welcomed, acknowledged, and respected, and most importantly they want the game to be good. A lot of games are so macho and violent, they effectively put up a 'no girlz allowed' sign. You're absolutely right that another Barbie or Mary Kate & Ashley game isn't solving the problem. These things are dead in the water to begin with because they rarely have decent funding because of a doubt that women play games. I mean, they are making an effort, but its kind of half-hearted. I think that putting money into big inclusive games that appeal to both genders, as well as other cultural groups, is where we can see games break past barriers and draw in these underrepresented demographics.

[prfsnl_gmr]

You're absolutely right that another Barbie or Mary Kate & Ashley game isn't solving the problem.

Clearly, you have never played Barbie & The Three Musketeers (Wii). WayForward developed it, and it is incredibly solid (even if, I must admit, it is a bit too easy).

[Exhuminator]

I was hoping this thread would be about adults and gaming. Not another thread about how women are persecuted in gaming.

[dsheinem]

I was hoping this thread would be about adults and gaming. Not another thread about how women are persecuted in gaming.

It's pretty hard to separate those out, as perceptions of adult gaming are pretty shot through with perceptions of gender norms, of relationships, etc.

[J T]

I was hoping this thread would be about adults and gaming. Not another thread about how women are persecuted in gaming.

It's pretty hard to separate those out, as perceptions of adult gaming are pretty shot through with perceptions of gender norms, of relationships, etc.

True. I think being able to rattle off a list of artistic games that aren't simple retreads of adolescent male power fantasies is part of what helps me to convince others that I am not simply a male stuck in a suspended state of adolescence.

But I will agree, I'm in no mood to argue with broken records either.

[Key-Glyph]

I was hoping this thread would be about adults and gaming. Not another thread about how women are persecuted in gaming.

Much of the conversation was focusing on the pressure, peer-generated and otherwise, that boys specifically are under to go through a symbolic coming-of-age by shedding their childhood things, the negative relationship implications that video gaming has on boys/men but not girls/women, video games as perceived laziness, different generational attitudes toward recreational activity, and so on, all of which are trains of thought also under this thread's awesomely gigantic conversational umbrella that can be constructively commented upon.

Speaking of peer pressure, I've been wondering if the perception that kids "grow out of gaming" is largely perpetuated by the fact that there are plenty of children and adolescents who play video games not because they deeply enjoy them or identify with the medium, but because it's just what their peers are doing at that age. I forget about the existence of the unenthused a lot, and I'm sure a lot of us do, since we've all clearly loved the hobby in a huge way.

Longish story about my sibling under the cut because it's not totally necessary for understanding my point, but:

...as an example, in the late 1980s my older brother appeared to be the only boy his age without any gaming console whatsoever. As my parents tell it, he would go visit with the kids in his grade after school, all of whom pretty much just wanted to play video games when their friends were over, and have no clue how to relate with any of it. He had no gaming experience or skills, not even a basic familiarity with the characters, what was expected of him in a game, or how to use a controller properly. Since pretty much all children go by the rule that you hold your turn as long as your character stays alive, my brother was in a constant state of failing and passing off the controller. He got made fun of and somewhat ostracized for this. What third grader is going to have the patience and heart to co-op with a complete n00b? What third grader isn't going to love beating the snot out of their helpless friend and then rubbing their face in it? And with video games being the conversational topic of choice on the playground, who is going to want to explain everything to the clueless kid?

So, in one of the only instances of their caving to the "all of my friends have it" argument ever, my parents bought us an NES. They truly felt that video games had become so culturally important as a collaborative childhood activity -- as important as playing baseball or riding bikes or playing card games -- that it was an experience my brother should be allowed to have and participate in, if at all possible.

The point of this long-winded tale about my brother is... he never actually enjoyed video games. He wanted to keep up with his friends, and of course he liked winning, but video games were intensely frustrating to him. As soon as his buddies opened up to other activities he preferred (e.g. playing guitar and drums in bands together), he never looked back. I've said it before, but I don't think he's touched a video game since 1992.

So sometimes I think about my brother and wonder whether the perception of kids growing out of video games is inflated by the fact that a percentage of them were never really into it in the first place -- and wouldn't have been involved at all, if it were up to them, except that it was pretty much unavoidable.

I mean, I was really into Pogs once. 'Nuff said.

EDIT: I meant to tie this all back to the different mentions of fishing and hunting and watching sports that a lot of you have brought up. Those activities serve the same purpose -- bringing people together, creating common conversational topics and share experiences -- and I'd wager that plenty of adults pursue those activities more for the camaraderie they facilitate than out of some deep love for those hobbies themselves (which is not to say that diehards don't exist, but you get what I mean).

[samsonlonghair]

I meant to tie this all back to the different mentions of fishing and hunting and watching sports that a lot of you have brought up. Those activities serve the same purpose -- bringing people together, creating common conversational topics and share experiences -- and I'd wager that plenty of adults pursue those activities more for the camaraderie they facilitate than out of some deep love for those hobbies themselves (which is not to say that diehards don't exist, but you get what I mean).

Fishing is something I can relate to here. I don't exactly enjoy fishing, and I never seem to catch anything, but it's a good time for male bonding. Whether I go fishing or not, it's never a huge financial investment unless some darn fool gets the notion that he wants to buy a boat.

Sports is a whole other ball of wax. Apparently it's socially acceptable for a grown adult man to walk into the office where he works dressed in a jersey on game day. He can spend his whole life obsessing over a sport he played from the time he was eleven 'till seventeen. I think there's big financial incentive here from the sports franchises to ensure that it's socially acceptable for this behavior to persist into adulthood. No child can afford a hundred and twenty-five dollar jersey, but a grown man can. Major league tickets are also awfully expensive, but farm league tickets can still be bought relatively cheaply. Whenever there's a big basketball game, the cameraman makes sure to get a shot of the celebrities making business deals at courtside. I guess that's to give us all the impression that sports is something for successful professionals. Sports companies are geniuses of marketing.

[Exhuminator]

I think about my brother and wonder whether the perception of kids growing out of video games is inflated by the fact that a percentage of them were never really into it in the first place

I think you're on to something with that train of thought.

I'd wager that plenty of adults pursue those activities more for the camaraderie they facilitate than out of some deep love for those hobbies themselves

I firmly believe this about golf. I know so many dudes that play golf, but are NOT good at it, but play it on a regular basis, due to it allowing them to get away from their wives and have a sausage party out on the green.

Apparently it's socially acceptable for a grown adult man to walk into the office where he works dressed in a jersey on game day.

The guy who's office is next to mine has his entire office decked out in his favorite college football team's various paraphernalia. Footballs, signed posters, jerseys, all that stuff. Not that I think there's anything wrong with that, but I bet my employer would be totally WTF if I started putting up King's Field posters and game cases all over my office.

I don't mind going down the sports hypocrisy route, but there are some here who will cry false equivalency. And they would be mostly right, but not entirely.