Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[Niode]

Polygon had another article up written by an Australian that gives a much more complete perspective on things:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/11/73762 ... lia-target

A lot of good points brought up in there. It really is a different cultural point of view, and while I might still disagree with the decision by Target the reasoning is much more understandable now.

I'm sorry but based on the whole gamer-gate fiasco and bullshit like giving Bayonetta 2 a 6/10 because it's sexist I find it hard to believe that Polygon are the most neutral party in this. I refuse to visit that website, it's full of patriarchy apologist white-knights and feminists hell bent on pushing an agenda.

[dsheinem]

I'm sorry but based on the whole gamer-gate fiasco and bullshit like giving Bayonetta 2 a 6/10 because it's sexist I find it hard to believe that Polygon are the most neutral party in this. I refuse to visit that website, it's full of patriarchy apologist white-knights and feminists hell bent on pushing an agenda.

I'll put the Gamergate stuff aside for the moment and simply mention that Polygon is one of the few game-related websites that has had an ethics policy in place since its inception that already covered a lot the stuff that sparked that "discussion".

Why is it unfair to dock a game's score because the reviewer found it sexist? Isn't it fair to give a movie or an album fewer stars because you find its lyrics or plot to be pandering, misogynistic, etc.? I mean, they also gave GTA V a 9.5, so clearly not all their reviewers are a hivemind of "white knights".

Beyond that, the piece you aren't reading is quite good and very germane to the discussion. Your loss.

[J T]

I was just in Australia (Sydney, Cairns, Manly, and Port Douglas) and there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't see at least a dozen Grand Theft Auto V advertisements. I wasn't even doing anything video game related while I was there. I don't think Target refusing to carry them is going to have much influence on sales there for such a heavily marketed game. I also wouldn't be surprised if this was somehow planned as a way of drumming up controversy for the game to get more buzz.

[TSTR]

I also wouldn't be surprised if this was somehow planned as a way of drumming up controversy for the game to get more buzz.

Yo that would be a super grimy tactic. Shrewd, but grimy.

[lisalover1]

I'm sorry but based on the whole gamer-gate fiasco and bullshit like giving Bayonetta 2 a 6/10 because it's sexist I find it hard to believe that Polygon are the most neutral party in this. I refuse to visit that website, it's full of patriarchy apologist white-knights and feminists hell bent on pushing an agenda.

You have no idea how much I'm trying to contain my rage at your post and NOT go on a huge, multi-paragraph rant about it.

[Niode]

I'll put the Gamergate stuff aside for the moment and simply mention that Polygon is one of the few game-related websites that has had an ethics policy in place since its inception that already covered a lot the stuff that sparked that "discussion".

That's a load of horseshit. You can't just 'leave aside' the gamer-gate stuff. Polygon was one of the worst culprits. As far as 'ethics' policy goes, this I assume doesn't cover nepotism which was the whole damn reason this game-gate thing started. I don't think it's appropriate to side-step this as it is a keystone to the whole issue right now. The polygon/depression quest saga was the catalyst for this whole tirade against 20 something male gamers. I'm sick of being tarred with the same brush regardless of what my views are.

Why is it unfair to dock a game's score because the reviewer found it sexist? Isn't it fair to give a movie or an album fewer stars because you find its lyrics or plot to be pandering, misogynistic, etc.? I mean, they also gave GTA V a 9.5, so clearly not all their reviewers are a hivemind of "white knights".

If other reviewers had came to the same conclusions (I'm looking at you Bloodrayne) then I might not have a problem. The issue I have is that they knew it was a fiery topic and they knew they could be controversial in pushing their agenda. It detracts from the whole point. Even worse, it pulls attention from what the game should be reviewed on. It's merits. A lot of female gamers are fans of the series because Bayonetta's character is seen as empowering. Sure query the games sexual overtones in an opinion piece but keep that shit out of the review. They should be reviewing the game based on how good it is as a game not because it's low-hanging fruit in the whole 'gamers are sexist' odyssey. It's basically like giving me a FIFA game to review, I have opinions on football and its value in society, I also happen to despise football games. Is giving me a game like that a good idea? Not really, I would be as objective as I possibly can to the game but if I don't enjoy playing the game and have no experience of past franchise titles how can I possibly give an impartial view. This is the issue. Polygon should have chosen somebody without an agenda to push to write the review. It should have been objective. If you read the review it's sickening, the guy actually admits that the game is great and a shining example of action game mechanics. Then slaps an insulting 6/10 score on the review. Wait hang on? It's akin to me reviewing FIFA by going "the game is a tour de force of mechanics, all the games systems function well and the game is effortless to play. However, I don't think FIFAs stances on sexism are appropriate at all, there is zero representation of women in the game, so the game is a 6/10". Do you see my point?

Did I mention Bayonetta was designed by a woman?

[pepharytheworm]

Did I mention Bayonetta was designed by a woman?

And The character's model was created by Kenichiro Yoshimura and created period by Hideki Kamiya. I am not going to say Bayonetta is a sexist designed character but if you read the details Kamiya added to make her his ideal woman, including the glasses and listen to Yoshimura talk in detail about the painstaking amount of time and effort he put into crafting her backside and studing non-japanese women to do such, saying a woman did the designs based on Kamiya expectations doesn't mean anything in to regards is it sexist or not. One of their reasons as to why she isn't sexist is that it can't be sexist because she doesn't have large breasts.

[Niode]

Did I mention Bayonetta was designed by a woman?

And The character's model was created by Kenichiro Yoshimura and created period by Hideki Kamiya. I am not going to say Bayonetta is a sexist designed character but if you read the details Kamiya added to make her his ideal woman, including the glasses and listen to Yoshimura talk in detail about the painstaking amount of time and effort he put into crafting her backside and studing non-japanese women to do such, saying a woman did the designs based on Kamiya expectations doesn't mean anything in to regards is it sexist or not. One of their reasons as to why she isn't sexist is that it can't be sexist because she doesn't have large breasts.

Those guys are idiots though. Can a character not just be sexy? The interesting thing about Bayonetta is it's not a 1 dimensional sex fantasy. Bayonetta knows she's sexy, she owns her body and the way that she flaunts it comes across as genuine. This is not some bullshit Lollypop Chainsaw "I have big tits and suck on a lollipop as if it was a cock TEEHEE!!" Ugh. Not helping. Bayonetta's character is convincingly sexy, some of it is over the top but it's flirtatious. Why must sexy = sexist? She's not a sex-starved BDSM nymph. Her mannerisms are confident and doesn't engage in any sexual behaviour besides a few knowing nods in that direction with the crack of a whip. Take a look at Jeanne, she also exists in this universe, doesn't dress the same way as Bayonetta but still has the same confidence and air of somebody that knows exactly what they want and how to get it. Based on the other depictions of females in the game, is it that much of a stretch that Bayonetta's character wants to dress that way, she embraces it and her sexiness empowers her. I know people who dress like Bayonetta (and have done before the game came out) never seen out of form fitting dresses and stilettos with bombastic hair-dos. Would you say they are part of the problem and they should moderate their dress? No because women have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want. To write the entire thing off as sexist because the director said a few controversial things to publicise the game discredits Mari Shimazaki's work.

[dsheinem]

stuff Niode said

Just a few things:

1. Polygon wasn't "indicted" by the public in the Zoe Quinn/Depression Quest stuff. Polygon folks aren't a part of the "Five Guys Saga" for example. So while they certainly have content that calls attention to "social justice issues" (as is their prerogative), it is a stretch to suggest that they are one of the "worst culprits" when it comes to unethical games journalism.

2. Bayonetta 2's Polygon review is certainly out of step with most, but SO WHAT? Again, a reviewer has a right to review the game in any way they'd like and there are plenty of other games with "sexy" and/or "sexist" content that Polygon has given stellar reviews to. I don't think it is the place of readers to tell a critic how to write their critique. This post captures my thoughts on the overzealous/assholish #GamerGate response to that review pretty well.

3. All of this is, again, tangential at best to the points raised in the two essays about how GTAV has been addressed by Australians (by exercising their rights) and how Rockstar has chosen to respond to them (by suggesting they are anti-free expression).

But, because the essays came from the UNETHICAL MALE-HATING, SEX-HATING WHITE KNIGHTS AT POLYGON we can just continue to ignore their sharp writing on the GTAV thing

[Niode]

I don't agree with their agenda, I don't agree with their 'journalists'. If they can choose to ignore facts and twist logic then I can choose to ignore them if I so wish. I am completely tired of this whole topic, absolutely sick to death of this particular feminist crusade. It seems to have come from nowhere and I don't like the way that male gamers are being portrayed in the media. Sadly a vocal view are tarring a lot of people with the shitty brush of misogyny and I'm just tired of it. I'm not a misogynist.