Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[Niode]

People won't make Bafta award winning games like GTAV anymore because they run the risk of them not selling at all.

Oh come on, GTA V is the best-selling game ever in the UK. It has sold a shit-ton worldwide. I think that the runaway success of the game will have a lot to do with what people will make going forward than a few ridiculous policies that limit sales in some contexts.

I've never seen evidence of this "chilling effect" that games criticism or game laws have on game development.

It's the frightening speed that this petition was set up and achieved its goal. That's what scares me, I've never seen that before. Usually you have a few minor groups, your Jack Thompsons and the like and they achieve a few things and convince a few deluded mothers that games are evil but nothing too major. This group managed to convince thousands of people that this game promotes sexual violence to women whilst conveniently forgetting that the game actively encourages you to murder and torture male NPCs in the game. Games are being used to push an agenda and I don't want to be lumped into this category that a lot of people I have met in real life seem to really believe in. That male gamers are basically one step away from being rapists.

[dsheinem]

It's the frightening speed that this petition was set up and achieved its goal. That's what scares me, I've never seen that before. Usually you have a few minor groups, your Jack Thompsons and the like and they achieve a few things and convince a few deluded mothers that games are evil but nothing too major.

I don't know...20 years ago video games had hearings on Capitol Hill and Mortal Kombat survived just fine. A few years back there was this high profile case that was in response to GTA4, primarily, and the series came back even stronger. Folks like Jack Thompson are a flash in the pan, and stuff like this petition is likely not going to hold up in any meaningful way for the long term (and not in more profitable contexts).

Besides, Australia has a long history of banning/censoring games...I don't think they are a big enough market to really impact development in any meaningful way.

This group managed to convince thousands of people that this game promotes sexual violence to women whilst conveniently forgetting that the game actively encourages you to murder and torture male NPCs in the game. Games are being used to push an agenda and I don't want to be lumped into this category that a lot of people I have met in real life seem to really believe in. That male gamers are basically one step away from being rapists.

Out of curiosity, is the game really some kind of "equal opportunity offender"? It seems disingenuous to imply as much. I am waiting for the PC version to play it, but hasn't the series always been a male power fantasy writ large? I believe that the three main characters are all misogynistic men, I assume that all the prostitutes and strippers are still women, that there's lots of dismissive homophobic and femphobic language, etc. There's certainly violence against men in the game (perhaps even sexualized violence?), but traditionally the series has taken a particularly demeaning tone and abusive view towards women...right? I mean, they aren't really off base, are they?

Besides, who is actually forwarding the claim that "male gamers are basically one step away from being rapists"? I was under the impression that the people behind this petition were basically exercising their right to petition stores to not carry content that they don't want to be accessible because they find it to be offensive. I don't see a problem with them doing that or, really, with the stores consenting to their wishes. Anyone is free to offer a counter-petition, to boycott these stores now, etc. I can't get upset when they exercised their voice and the people who are upset didn't do so in any meaningful way. Hell, if I was being accused of being "one step away from being a rapist" and I knew that those claims were gaining traction, I'd be doing a lot of work to disprove that viewpoint.

[Niode]

Besides, who is actually forwarding the claim that "male gamers are basically one step away from being rapists"? I was under the impression that the people behind this petition were basically exercising their right to petition stores to not carry content that they don't want to be accessible because they find it to be offensive. I don't see a problem with them doing that or, really, with the stores consenting to their wishes. Anyone is free to offer a counter-petition, to boycott these stores now, etc. I can't get upset when they exercised their voice and the people who are upset didn't do so in any meaningful way. Hell, if I was being accused of being "one step away from being a rapist" and I knew that those claims were gaining traction, I'd be doing a lot of work to disprove that viewpoint.

I can't go into details right now because I'm at work but I'll find my sources later. I'll point you to the whole GamerGate debacle for the cliff notes. This whole episode has empowered certain people whilst walking all over certain demographic (18-30 male gamers). In the eyes of some, you're either part of the solution (Brainwashed Sarkeesianites) or a mysognyst cis gendered rapist.

[dsheinem]

In the eyes of some, you're either part of the solution (Brainwashed Sarkeesianites) or a mysognyst cis gendered rapist.

I am quite familiar with the ins and outs of Gamergate.

No one with any real sense would give much credence to these kinds of caricatures. There are some reasonable claims and complaints on all "sides" of the Gamergate stuff, and then there is a vocal majority of fuckwits who obscure anything of value to be found in the discussion about games and gender (and journalism, violence, etc.) by (deliberately?) misreading and/or misrepresenting the arguments of more measured, reasonable critics (e.g. Sarkeesian or Alexander) and then calling for an end to all games with violence, doxxing, making spurious claims like the one you mentioned, etc. Idiots abound all around.

I don't see anything to suggest that the group of people petitioning against GTAV fall into this camp - have they made any unreasonable claims or misrepresentations?

[Opa Opa]

Why would anyone take GTA seriously? It's always been a parody of extreme stereotypes and pokes fun at popular culture.

[dsheinem]

Why would anyone take GTA seriously? It's always been a parody of extreme stereotypes and pokes fun at popular culture.

A lot of people don't get satire. Including, increasingly, even people old enough to buy GTA. I think that there are probably a lot of people who play the game that completely miss the satire, only get some of it, etc.

[Erik_Twice]

I am waiting for the PC version to play it, but hasn't the series always been a male power fantasy writ large?

Hasn't the term "male power fantasy" always been sexist code for "men like this because they are violent and sex-crazed"? Really hate that term, it's gender-reinforcing backwardness

I believe that the three main characters are all misogynistic men, I assume that all the prostitutes and strippers are still women, that there's lots of dismissive homophobic and femphobic language, etc. There's certainly violence against men in the game (perhaps even sexualized violence?), but traditionally the series has taken a particularly demeaning tone and abusive view towards women...right? I mean, they aren't really off base, are they?

Well, that's like saying that Apocalypse Now has jingoistic trigger-happy men that murder hapless civilians with unending glee to further American ideals. It's strictly true but clearly misleading.

Anyone is free to offer a counter-petition, to boycott these stores now, etc. I can't get upset when they exercised their voice and the people who are upset didn't do so in any meaningful way.

I think you argued against this very argument when we discussed gender representation in gaming. Still, I find the use of "it's a free market, they can do whatever they want" to be awfully shortsighted given the topic.

I don't see anything to suggest that the group of people petitioning against GTAV fall into this camp - have they made any unreasonable claims or misrepresentations?

The act of trying to prohibit the sales of a work of art seems unreasonable enough to me. De facto, low level censorship is still censorship.

[pepharytheworm]

I like how video games flip flop between being art or just a game to fit the arguement.
Not pin pointing anyone doing that. It's just the use of "work of art" to describe GTA V kinda sounds funny and I am one who agrees games are just as much art as movies are.

[Jmustang1968]

Art is art even if you find it distasteful. So let's ban this game because some can't pick up on satire. And the problem with their petition is the whole 'I dont like it, or am offended, so others shouldnt have access to it'. Instead of the 'I find it distasteful so I will choose not to buy it.'

[dsheinem]

Hasn't the term "male power fantasy" always been sexist code for "men like this because they are violent and sex-crazed"? Really hate that term, it's gender-reinforcing backwardness

Fair enough, but the term has its roots in psychology (wish-fulfillment) and isn't strictly about games. As I understand it, the "male" qualifier indicates simply that these are fantasies where men have power BECAUSE they are men and that part of the power represented in the fantasy is thus a power over women. I think it is an apt term, but I understand your reservations. What would you call it?

I believe that the three main characters are all misogynistic men, I assume that all the prostitutes and strippers are still women, that there's lots of dismissive homophobic and femphobic language, etc. There's certainly violence against men in the game (perhaps even sexualized violence?), but traditionally the series has taken a particularly demeaning tone and abusive view towards women...right? I mean, they aren't really off base, are they?

Well, that's like saying that Apocalypse Now has jingoistic trigger-happy men that murder hapless civilians with unending glee to further American ideals. It's strictly true but clearly misleading.

I think that this is the problem/strength with games, though, is that the detachment between you and the protagonist is much less pronounced. It's why people go ape shit over the content in games and not as much in movies. It might not be "fair" but you also can't hold games up as being a meaningful medium that provides unique ways of seeing the world and then dismiss that power and equate them with film when the game does something that might be offensive.

Anyone is free to offer a counter-petition, to boycott these stores now, etc. I can't get upset when they exercised their voice and the people who are upset didn't do so in any meaningful way.

I think you argued against this very argument when we discussed gender representation in gaming. Still, I find the use of "it's a free market, they can do whatever they want" to be awfully shortsighted given the topic.

Again, a comparison that doesn't work. The difference is one of agency. It requires a lot more access, power, and organization to produce change from within the game industry. It requires much less to instigate change from a petition, a "medium" of expression in which a lot more people have equal opportunity to be heard.

I don't see anything to suggest that the group of people petitioning against GTAV fall into this camp - have they made any unreasonable claims or misrepresentations?

The act of trying to prohibit the sales of a work of art seems unreasonable enough to me. De facto, low level censorship is still censorship.

I don't agree with the group's goals at all. I concur with you, on this point. But, as far as I can tell, they haven't made false claims or petitioned for something that they have no right to petition for.