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Hatta wrote:Why should I have to analyze their deep symbolism, if they have something to say, they should just say it. Any novel I've read that actually had a point to make, would have made the point much better in the form of an essay or treatise.

As a writer myself (well, soon) I both agree and disagree. It's a piece-by-piece thing to judge. Most writers would do a lot better to remember that symbolism so complicated it cannot be interpreted easily is failed symbolism. Nine times out of ten, the most concise way to say something is the best way to say something. That is not to say the diction and syntax should be basic, but that it should aim to be as clear as possible unless there is undeniable artistic gain for not being so.

However, sometimes the message is intended to be hidden to a degree so the symbolism doesn't show its hand too early on (a novel that painted an event as negative wouldn't be overly enjoyable if it began with "the following events are horrible and you should hate them", for example). There are also situations where an author doesn't want to enforce their own viewpoint on the reader, just have them appreciate it. And much could also be said about a constructed meaning whose point is entirely to get the reader into a frame of mind that they can comprehend the hidden messages - sometimes the journey is more important than the ending.

It is also good to remember that a plot is not the most exciting part of a novel. A plot is just an idea, and ideas are cheap. Good plots act as enablers for characterisation and metaphor, the complexities that surround a sequence of events. Removing the hidden depths and symbolism just leaves you with the literary equivalent of Spot The Dog.

Spoiler Duck wrote:Could anyone recommend more social science fiction along the lines of 1984 and Brave New World? Wading through the science fiction genre to find something classifiable as 'good' seems ridiculously hard. Without much knowledge in the subject I don't know where to begin.

You mean you want dystopian literature, or works with dystopian themes? Here's a few:

H. G. Wells - The Shape of Things to Come
Ray Bradbury - Fahrenheit 451
Frederik Pohl and Cyril M. Kornbluth - The Space Merchants
Phillip K. Dick - Time Out of Joint
Anthony Burgess - A Clockwork Orange
Harry Harrison - Make Room! Make Room!
John Brunner - Stand on Zanzibar
John Brunner - The Jagged Orbit
Larry Niven - A World Out of Time
Vladimir Voinovich - Moscow 2042
Koushun Takami - Battle Royale

If you're at all interested in Cyberpunk, there's Gibson's Sprawl Trilogy, composed of Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive.

You can also see some of the same stuff in Phillip K. Dick's short stories, works like "Foster, You're Dead!" and "The Minority Report."

Thank you for the suggestions, I'll be sure to check look into them, and perhaps I should clarify. Social science fiction is a genre of warnings/lessons an author might wish to convey by showing an alternate reality or future. The best recent example is probably Wall.E's examination of a free capitalist market. But yes, dystopian settings normally play quite well into these genre for obvious reasons.

I'm using them to construct a dissertation for university around how interactive fiction (ie videogames) can explore these moral narrative constructs in a more interesting way for the 21st century than traditional novels.

kingmohd84 wrote:Does any one have a problem like me in reading?
it takes me like an hour to go through 20 pages, is this normal?
that means i need ten days to go through 200 page book(short), that is if i read 1 hour a day, which is a lot for me

Not really timed myself properly but I'd say thats roughly about my speed as well. But it also depends on the book. Sometimes I just have to re-read parts to make sure I understand whats going on etc.

Hmm, wonder if I should get a book on about how to speed read....

And does anyone do their reading on a e-book reader?

Ah, I'd say dystopian definitely falls into that.

Sounds like a cool dissertation. Am I correct in assuming Doctoral? Let me know if you need anything from a librarian stateside. I'm always happy to help.

Not doctoral; I'm still only an undergrad (third year English Literature and Creative Writing student, graduating this summer). Might consider doing a PHD in the future, but I'd need a somewhat regular career in writing first so I could be more financially stable.

Again, thank you for the offer. I might just take you up on it if the need strikes me.

Ah, sorry, used to people referring to it as their Bachelor's and Master's thesis.

That's cool. I'll be here whenever you need something.

Spoiler Duck wrote:Could anyone recommend more social science fiction along the lines of 1984 and Brave New World? Wading through the science fiction genre to find something classifiable as 'good' seems ridiculously hard. Without much knowledge in the subject I don't know where to begin.

Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged

It may not be science fiction but as far as social fiction goes it's bang on the mark, as long as you don't take the objectivism to heart

As for myself i'm a habitual reader, Hesse, Kafka and Milton for a cerebral read with a soft spot for Pratchett. I have a favourite author too, Heller, Catch-22 being an amazing book, but other things like Something Happened and God Knows are fantastic too.

social science fiction... and the also commented dystopian future is exactly what the last book I read was (and I already said in my first post in this thread)

Margaret Atwood - Oryx & Crake

It was a phenomenal read about a man who calls himself "Snowman". The story starts off with him living in a tree at the edge of a wasteland on a beach; mourning the loss of his love Oryx and his best friend Crake and is slowly starving to death. It's mostly an account of him trying to piece together what exactly happened in the end throws of human existence before he became the last living human on earth.

The story does a lot of jumping around, in a good way. From the past to the present and all in between. The characters of the story all have different names for themselves for different time periods making it easy to keep track of which period of time you are reading about. As mankind crawls closer to damnation the three main characters come closer to calling themselves "Snowman", "Oryx" and "Crake".

I spent the first 100 or so pages taking my time and reading it on the toilet and it was leaving me with a who TON of questions that I wanted answers for and was getting kinda angry that the book wasn't giving them to me. Finally one of my important questions got answered and bam I couldn't stop, it was like 10 O'clock at night and before I knew it, it was 7AM and I was closing the book finished... and very fulfilled by the story.

I'm definitely picking up her other book "A Handmaid's Tale" after I read "Life of Pi".



I read "Atlas Shrugged" back in high school and really enjoyed that as well. It was the "hip" thing to do in my high school, to read Ayn Rand, so it was this whole clique of us walking around with "Atlas Shrugged" and "Fountainhead" under our arms and mumbling on like incoherent adolescents about socialism and American politics while quoting books and Nietzsche...

kinda sad in hind sight.

Philip K Dick's The Man In the High Castle comes highly recommended if you're into alternative history. It's so far the most deserving Hugo Award winner that I've read.

Does any one have a problem like me in reading?
it takes me like an hour to go through 20 pages, is this normal?
that means i need ten days to go through 200 page book(short), that is if i read 1 hour a day, which is a lot for me

Well perhaps it is a bit excessive, but the more you read the better you'll get at it. Don't sweat it and have fun while reading. Many things that aren't obligatory should be enjoyable to a degree.