POLL: Bootlegs / Reproductions: What is allowed

[nullxor]

People actually sell reproduction retail games here? I don't agree with it because with devices such as Everdrives existing, why bother potentially flooding the market and ruining your hobby (collecting, hunting for games) with bootlegs? You can't blame it on the price because while M.U.S.H.A. may be $200, a Genesis Everdrive is only $80. Though I don't have a problem with unreleased/hacked/specific region reproductions at all really. I wouldn't even put a label stating that it was a reproduction on a cartridge of any of those types of games. If someone is going to buy one off me, they would know the back story on it and that it's not locally available in the market here.

Selling retail reproductions shouldn't be allowed I think and I assumed everyone here felt that way.

Nice story bro.

Is that your only input on the subject? I'm genuinely curious as to why you would think it's a good idea or okay to sell retail bootlegs besides to make yourself money?

[dedalusdedalus]

People actually sell reproduction retail games here? I don't agree with it because with devices such as Everdrives existing, why bother potentially flooding the market and ruining your hobby (collecting, hunting for games) with bootlegs? You can't blame it on the price because while M.U.S.H.A. may be $200, a Genesis Everdrive is only $80. Though I don't have a problem with unreleased/hacked/specific region reproductions at all really. I wouldn't even put a label stating that it was a reproduction on a cartridge of any of those types of games. If someone is going to buy one off me, they would know the back story on it and that it's not locally available in the market here.

Selling retail reproductions shouldn't be allowed I think and I assumed everyone here felt that way.

Agreed. While everyone is savvy enough on this forum to know what they're buying, let's not forget that these carts are ultimately entering the stream of commerce. It only takes one unscrupulous buyer downstream to alter the labels. There are probably aggravating factors unique to that particular market, but we want as much as possible to avoid reaching the current state of the AES market. Having to verify details at every stage of the transaction has a certain way of sucking the fun out of collecting games.

Also, the point regarding the Everdrive was well-taken. With the proliferation of flash carts, the argument that repros are the only cheap way to access certain games on original hardware feels hollow.

In my opinion, the only circumstances where repros should be allowed are:
(1) Multi-carts
(2) Rom Hacks, provided that the title of the game is clearly edited on both the physical label AND the game's title screen
(3) The repro makes the game available in a format or language in which it was never made commercially available, AND the label clearly states that it's a reproduction.

We can get into the nitty-gritty of what it should mean for a label to "clearly state that it's a reproduction" by specifying the necessary size of the disclaimer, sort of like cigarette warning labels.

I think the rule as proposed would best balance the interests of all involved in the board:
-"collectors" won't feel that their rare games are getting devalued by someone who wants to make a quick buck
-"gamers" will still have access to cheap games on original hardware via flash and multi-carts
-those in the business of selling repros can still sell certain items
-the market in general won't be flooded with reproductions that would be an invitation to dishonesty when placed into less scrupulous hands

Also, the "Caveat emptor" argument doesn't cut it these days. Society has advanced to the point where most countries have consumer protection laws on their books. We should at least try to emulate that standard.

Nice story bro.

You know this isn't a valid counter-argument, right? Nonetheless, I'd like to hear a well-reasoned response to nullxor's concerns.

[Omerta]

People actually sell reproduction retail games here? I don't agree with it because with devices such as Everdrives existing, why bother potentially flooding the market and ruining your hobby (collecting, hunting for games) with bootlegs? You can't blame it on the price because while M.U.S.H.A. may be $200, a Genesis Everdrive is only $80. Though I don't have a problem with unreleased/hacked/specific region reproductions at all really. I wouldn't even put a label stating that it was a reproduction on a cartridge of any of those types of games. If someone is going to buy one off me, they would know the back story on it and that it's not locally available in the market here.

Selling retail reproductions shouldn't be allowed I think and I assumed everyone here felt that way.

Nice story bro.

Is that your only input on the subject? I'm genuinely curious as to why you would think it's a good idea or okay to sell retail bootlegs besides to make yourself money?

I'm genuinely curious as to why you would think it's NOT a good idea or okay to sell retail bootlegs besides to make yourself money... while at the same time finding it perfectly fine to download MUSHA and hundreds of others for nothing and slapping it on an Everdrive while it's available for retail sale today on the Wii Virtual Console (or other services depending on the game).

I get that you'd rather not have bootlegs floating around to prevent fraudulent overpriced sales and I have nothing against using flash carts. But it's hard to take the moral high ground when you advocate something else that can be seen as equally illegitimate by other standards.

[mjmjr25]

The minor differences being:

*It generally doesn't sacrifice anything (some do use old shells, but most nowadays do not) and the PCB's are always new.
*It can't be passed off as an original at any point

Your point is taken, though - but those are why I personally have a distinction.

It took me weeks to find a MUSHA which is why i've been using it as a go-to example. Go look on Ebay for completed MUSHA listings - it's darn near impossible to tell what's real and what isn't. Yeah, some sellers make a point to say "repro", but others don't. Worse yet, some sellers now have to say "not a repro". One copy listed as "not a repro" sold for $63. One copy sold for $399. These repros make it a complete crapshoot to try and find originals of games. I finally found one on shmups forums from a reputable member who was the original owner - it was the only way I felt comfortable shelling out the money. Buying AES games...even more difficult. I'm honestly shocked that so many are ok selling "repros" of games released in this country's format.

Is that a nice enough story for you, Onyx? You have some nerve with your post being that you are the biggest proliferator of GEN/MD boots on this forum. Let's hear your real argument for selling "repros" of MUSHA, a game with no language barrier and available in both US and JP releases.

[mjmjr25]

I wish there was a keep things as they are option.

That could be #1 or #2.

The problem is that the wording in both is too vague. I thought, by voting for #2, I was voting for the status quo, which is an expectation of honest listings in a thread. I am guessing many others did too.

Vague? How long should they be - those are the longest worded options in any poll on this site that i've seen.

...and what is vague about it. Hobie said #1 or #2 are essentially status quo, depending on how one interprets the marketplace rules, that is entirely accurate, those are the "im for status quo" votes - what did you and many others guess wrongly on - sounds like you got it spot on.

[dsheinem]

Vague? How long should they be - those are the longest worded options in any poll on this site that i've seen.

...and what is vague about it. Hobie said #1 or #2 are essentially status quo, depending on how one interprets the marketplace rules, that is entirely accurate, those are the "im for status quo" votes - what did you and many others guess wrongly on - sounds like you got it spot on.

Per your reply earlier in the thread, I now understand your interpretation of #2 to be "labeled on the cart" whereas my interpretaion when voting was "labeled in the thread". The latter is status quo, the former is a new policy.

#1 reads like "it's fine to sell repros not labeled as such anywhere"

[Duane Dibbley]

This may be oversimplifying it, but it sounds like the arguments boil down to those who want to collect games for the sake of collecting (opposed to repros), and those who want to collect games for the sake of playing (OK with repros).

The flash cart point only makes sense if people are interested in playing a lot of hard-to-get games. If I'm interested in five or less of the games Onyx has for sale, for instance, it would be less expensive to go the repro route than the flash cart one. Just putting that out there, as not all of us have a ton of funds to spend on games.

[mjmjr25]

Vague? How long should they be - those are the longest worded options in any poll on this site that i've seen.

...and what is vague about it. Hobie said #1 or #2 are essentially status quo, depending on how one interprets the marketplace rules, that is entirely accurate, those are the "im for status quo" votes - what did you and many others guess wrongly on - sounds like you got it spot on.

Per your reply earlier in the thread, I now understand your interpretation of #2 to be "labeled on the cart" whereas my interpretaion when voting was "labeled in the thread". The latter is status quo, the former is a new policy.

#1 reads like "it's fine to sell repros not labeled as such anywhere"

I see what you're saying.

I made a wrong assumption. To me (and I thought to others) any repro not distinguishable as a repro should be clearly labeled (on the item).

Meaning: Rendering Ranger R2 in a US SNES shell does not need to say "repro" on the label. It was never released in the US, thus anytime it is seen in a US shell it is clearly identified as a repro. It should of course still be noted by the seller that it is a repro.

MUSHA in a US shell should say "reproduction" on the label. It was released in a US shell and without that, it isn't distinguishable from an official release. This must be identified as a repro (to me).

In either case, I don't know how we would spell all that out in the poll option, nor do I think it would change anyones vote - rather, if option 2 wins, we would probably have to have another poll to determine if the item should be identified physically on the item as a repro, of if the seller just saying it is a repro is good enough.

[Jmustang1968]

With this further explanation from Mike, I am fine with #2. Obvious translated games in in US shells can be considered 'marked'. Repros of US released games should be marked as such otherwise they are just bootlegs. I distinguish bootlegs from repros in that bootlegs are counterfeits passed off as thr real thing.

[bryan_65]

MUSHA in a US shell should say "reproduction" on the label. It was released in a US shell and without that, it isn't distinguishable from an official release. This must be identified as a repro (to me).

I have kept meaning to get this when it was @ $100-$200 now I am scared to be paying $300+, I would be fine if I did not have to wonder if parts of it were a boot. MUSHA is the only high top tier Geneses game I still need and I am too damn nervous to buy one cause even if the cart is real what about the label and artwork.