Nintendo still fighting pirates :)

[Limewater]

I wish people would stop calling date-rape rape. It's date-rape, not rape-rape. They're not the same thing. In date rape, the girl has agreed to go out with you, so she has it coming. In rape, the girl doesn't know it's going to happen. That's an important distinction. They aren't the same thing.

I mean, by agreeing to go out with you by the third date, she kind of owes it to you, ya know?

[ieatramen]

He deserves to be punished, but 1.5 mill simply doesn't meet the crime. I found this: http://offtheshelf.nowis.com/index.cfm?ID=5 It's kinda old but an interesting read.

How/why is it that piracy can be such a larger offense than physical theft? What is the point of a such a large fine?

[enderfall]

So long as we live in a capitalistic society, learn to accept the rules that go along with it. Companies are protected under the IP laws within each country. These are in place to encourage innovation and only helps the consumer. Don't like it, move to North Korea or some other fascist state. If you get caught you won't be fined, but you'll have a hard time doing it again with no hands!

I haven't heard "If you don't like it, move to russia you commie!" since Reagan was in office. You don't really think that approaches anything like a real argument, do you?

Here's a hint, in a free democratic society it's entirely acceptable (even encouraged) to complain about laws you feel are unjust or unjustly applied. If enough people complain, the law can be (and should be) changed. Wow, I can't believe I actually had to explain that to someone.

First of all, the last line was a joke. I would never openly tell anyone to move to North Korea, geez. And second, complaining about rules/laws and breaking them are two entirely different things.

He deserves to be punished, but 1.5 mill simply doesn't meet the crime. I found this: http://offtheshelf.nowis.com/index.cfm?ID=5 It's kinda old but an interesting read.

How/why is it that piracy can be such a larger offense than physical theft? What is the point of a such a large fine?

The point of the large fine is that it is probably what Nintendo was able to demonstrate as lost revenue by his actions. And since his actions allow many many people access to illegally download the game, then yes what he did was worse than physical theft. Think about it, if he goes to Best Buy and steals the game, Nintendo (and Best Buy for that matter) are out $50. By posting this online, he cost Nintendo hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions.

[MrPopo]

I wish people would stop calling date-rape rape. It's date-rape, not rape-rape. They're not the same thing. In date rape, the girl has agreed to go out with you, so she has it coming. In rape, the girl doesn't know it's going to happen. That's an important distinction. They aren't the same thing.

I mean, by agreeing to go out with you by the third date, she kind of owes it to you, ya know?

Please please please please please tell me this is a joke and you forgot to use the official blue text of sarcasm. Cause if not, I have to completely go off on you.

[Kebo]

He deserves to be punished, but 1.5 mill simply doesn't meet the crime. I found this: http://offtheshelf.nowis.com/index.cfm?ID=5 It's kinda old but an interesting read.

How/why is it that piracy can be such a larger offense than physical theft? What is the point of a such a large fine?

It's more than with physical theft because of its effects. Stealing one TV doesn't lead to a thousand more stolen. Let's say 100,000 people pirate the game because of him. That's 5 million in revenue. But overall I agree, 1.5 million is just there for the sensationalism. Most people are never going to think "I'm going to be fined 1.5 million if I do this". Smaller, more frequent fines would be far better than these huge, single target ones.

[ieatramen]

It's more than with physical theft because of its effects. Stealing one TV doesn't lead to a thousand more stolen. Let's say 100,000 people pirate the game because of him. That's 5 million in revenue. But overall I agree, 1.5 million is just there for the sensationalism. Most people are never going to think "I'm going to be fined 1.5 million if I do this". Smaller, more frequent fines would be far better than these huge, single target ones.

Ahh... makes sense. I wonder if that guy got a cease and desist letter or something from his service provider. Or At least some kind of warning.

[MrHealthy]

Well only my first paragraph was a direct response to you, the rest was just in general. But I am game for some debate, as long as we realize that we will probably not change each others opinion and we do not get angry at each other. So lets break this down;

I don't appreciate the strawman you created there, nowhere did I say or imply a pirated game is "equal" to a lost sale.

But let's not live in fantasy land here, piracy leads to lost sales.

There is no evidence of this. However, I also know there is no evidence for the other side of this coin as well.

PC gaming revenue hasn't declined solely because of free games and consoles. There's "no data" to back the claim because it's impossible to measure, an intellectually dishonest argument.

Thats my entire point, I wasn't trying to argue for piracy here, I was trying to say that the whole piracy does/does not cause a loss of a sale is an impossible point to argue. Neither side has and hard facts to support them so when ever this point is brought up (and it is in every piracy talk), its just beating a dead horse. Its not dishonest, its just pointless.

However, common sense will tell us people that regularly pirate games, if given no other choice, would buy games instead of giving up the hobby entirely. Surely you don't dispute that, I've never had someone dispute that point.

So just because no one else has questioned you means you are right on the point? I'm not trying to be offensive here but thats very arrogant of you. Common sense changes from person to person, city to city, country to country, religion to religion, etc. One could argue (though I won't because its not worth doing the research for a forum debate) that gaming has only become so popular do to the increased ease of obtaining games when PC games first hit the web.

You have a point on the used market, albeit a flawed one.

My point was that you thought it was selfish to pirate because no money goes to the developer. Its the exact same for a used game sale, no money goes to the developer. How is the first selfish but the second not so? Just because you haven't broken any laws? Or you paid for the used game rather then getting it for free?

Used games market at a supply and demand rate. Some 'used' games of new games still sell at $55+ for the $60 game (why buy used when brand new is only $5-10 higher).

I agree here, but at the same time, some people are on a really tight budget and 5 dollars can feed them dinner.

Buying a used game keeps the price up higher, often causing someone to go buy a retail copy instead.

This makes no sense. Used games don't keep prices higher, they make new games drop in price. This is because if everyone buys it used after the initial launch developers so no more profit and drop the price of the game to try and get new sales back. Because they dropped the price they now need to sell more units to make a profit, but used games drop as well when this happens allowing the used sales to continue to beat the new price.

Not to mention some people simply wouldn't buy the games if they couldn't resell them (and we'd be back to rental heavy market) because it would imply they aren't owning the property (this is more along the lines of digital distribution, which we're going into soon).

The popularity of steam and direct to drive among other digital services say otherwise. Of course some people wouldn't buy them still, but they are in the minority, and that minority might then in turn do towards piracy.

I'm sure you're well aware of individuals' right to sell used cars. Which is better for game companies is hard to say. I certainly do not advocate buying recently released games used. To equate it to piracy, however, is lunacy.

Its not lunacy, there are distinct similarity. But of course they aren't exactly a like, nothing is exactly a like.

One clearly still will create a ripple effect in the market that leads to profit (not as high as it should be), the other is an empty void of selfish piracy. I can explain this idea in further detail if need be.

You are failing to see that piracy has a ripple effect as well. A pirate may download a game and like it so much that they go buy it. Or alternatively they could recommend the game to there friends (some who will not be pirates themselves) and those friends may go out and buy the game. Maybe you just hadn't thought about that angle at all?

If music pirates had no option to pirate anything, they likely would spend even more on music. The notion that because they spend more on music as a whole has nothing to do with whether they would make more purchases if piracy was not an option.

Many artists claim that piracy has brought them new fans, and with new fans comes more sales. If piracy was not an option those people may never have become a fan of an artist and that artist would never have gotten a sale from them.

It's utter nonsense to pretend pirated software, at some %, wouldn't be bought by the pirates if they couldn't obtain it any other way. Yes, it wouldn't be 1:1, of course not. Anyone that tries to argue it's a 1:1 rate is being completely unreasonable. Even a 1:2 ratio of purchase:piracy is probably unlikely. Someone that pirates 200 PC games wouldn't go buy those 200 PC games. But if they buy 3 or 4, that makes a difference.

But because no data exists it is impossible to say for sure. Its currently an unknown, a variable. Even though the chance is small that there would be no difference in sales, not even one more sale, there is still a chance. Essentially this situation is a Schrödinger's cat. It exist in a state of both affecting and not affecting sales at the same time. Only when we can open the box (in this case do a study under the correct conditions) will we know for sure.

Just because there's not data on this doesn't make it untrue.

Are you by chance religious, because this is how people explain god.

There's not strict scientific data on what creates consciousness either. Surely you're not going to dispute that we have consciousness.

Of course we do, but since what you think is right or good and what I do are completely different its hard to compare. So we have to turn to logic as logic never changes.

And going into detailed studies on motivations and the effects of piracy that can be deduced by common sense is just a waste of researchers' time and money.

Many would argue that playing and collecting video games is a waste of time and money. Hasn't stopped us yet.

Your idea of theft is terribly outdated, I'm sorry you haven't caught up to the modern age.

Your idea of pirates is terribly outdated, I'm sorry you haven't caught up to the modern age. I can be condescending as well. Look at that.

If I develop software, and it's cracked immediately, and freely distributed to everyone, that's not theft?

Nope. Nothing has been taken from you. You still have your software and you are free to sell it all you want.

You can argue the semantics, which is pretty dishonest, because we all know, for all intents and purposes, it's stealing.

No, we don't all know and you wanna know why? Because everyone understand words differently, thus we have to argue semantics if we hope to truly understand the others position. That doesn't make anyone dishonest.

I'm sure you're well aware some games are sold solely as a digital download. Therefore it is impossible to steal from them?

Stealing from a digital download no, its not impossible. But stealing a digital download is. Unless of course the download is tied to a unique download code, in which case someone could steal the code and use it first.

Please, give me a break. Do you understand how cheap a game disc costs to make? Surely stealing a physical game is theft, despite its low cost. So that small amount of cost is what separates the two acts?

Yep. And in most cases the law is on my side here. That is because most pirates who are caught are charged with copyright infringement, not theft. Again, they do have similarities, but they are distinctly different charges. In the case of Dowling v. United States (1985) the Supreme court ended up ruling that "is that while copyright infringement may (or may not) cause economic loss to the copyright holder, as theft does, it does not appropriate a physical object, nor deprive the copyright holder of the use of the copyright." Oh, I guess my definition of theft is 'outdated' then, but its what the courts still use so its the current fact.

So if I pay the manufacturer $1 for the game I just stole, it's ok? And it's not like they couldn't make trillions upon trillions, (or effectively infinite in our lifetime) more discs.

I never said it wasn't illegal under current laws to download, but whether its right or wrong to do that is a personal decision.

Did you know you can 'steal' an idea? Let's play semantics, since you seem to want to. One of the definitions for 'steal' is:

to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.

Yes I knew (there you go being condescending again), but since the up loader is not passing the game off as his own and the creators are acknowledged in the games credits there is no intellectual theft occurring during an act of piracy.

Nowhere in my original post did I suggest anyone be charged with theft of property, rather they should be rightfully charged with copyright/patent infringement and fined for it. I'm sure you don't need it explained to you how important copyright and patent laws are, especially in the modern day market. As more and more of our professional work force is based around creativity, ideas, software, and data that can be copied or stolen, the more we need to protect the products of their work. I shudder to think of a world with absolutely no legal respect for creativity and ideas.

As it should be, but just as my idea of theft is outdated so are your ideas of copyrights and infringement. Times are changing fast. People have had a taste of content being delivered when and where they want it all for free, copyright law needs to change to reflect this while still maintaining rights as a creator. There are already tons of sites and musicians who give content away for free yet still turn a profit so its not like its impossible to do.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't mention theft or stealing in my entire post besides addressing your very own argument (the idea that it's 'not theft of physical property', and thus is alleviated of any legal, moral or ethical burdens). Honestly your simple and tired argument (which I've heard a hundred times over) is outdated and weak.

You clearly miss-understood my meanings, thats okay, but you have been condescending for most of this post. I have heard ypur 'simple and tired argument' a hundred times over as well.

I never said I was advocating pirating for the sake of getting free shit. I pirate because I realize that the current ideas of theft and copyright infringement are terribly outdated and unfair. I seek reform to copyright laws across the globe.

[Flak Beard]

Quote overload.

[Limewater]

I wish people would stop calling date-rape rape. It's date-rape, not rape-rape. They're not the same thing. In date rape, the girl has agreed to go out with you, so she has it coming. In rape, the girl doesn't know it's going to happen. That's an important distinction. They aren't the same thing.

I mean, by agreeing to go out with you by the third date, she kind of owes it to you, ya know?

Please please please please please tell me this is a joke and you forgot to use the official blue text of sarcasm. Cause if not, I have to completely go off on you.

Are you telling me not to date-rape? Get off your high horse, you self-righteous jerk! I mean, it's not like a girl can't have sex ever again after she's been date-raped! She can still go out and slut it up all she wants!

[Niode]

I wish people would stop calling date-rape rape. It's date-rape, not rape-rape. They're not the same thing. In date rape, the girl has agreed to go out with you, so she has it coming. In rape, the girl doesn't know it's going to happen. That's an important distinction. They aren't the same thing.

I mean, by agreeing to go out with you by the third date, she kind of owes it to you, ya know?

Please please please please please tell me this is a joke and you forgot to use the official blue text of sarcasm. Cause if not, I have to completely go off on you.

Are you telling me not to date-rape? Get off your high horse, you self-righteous jerk! I mean, it's not like a girl can't have sex ever again after she's been date-raped! She can still go out and slut it up all she wants!

But not if you steal her physically from wal-mart! Er.. whut?