"no russian"

[Weekend_Warrior]

Controversy sells. You guys should all know this by now

[Gamerforlife]

Controversy sells. You guys should all know this by now

Yeah, I mentioned it in a previous post. That's another reason the level bugs me a bit. Throwing good taste out the window for money and attention. Not the sort of company that I want to support personally, but that's just me

[(-_-)]

I got the game on launch night and I like it a lot. The story was interesting and there are a ton of moments where my jaw just drops. This part has me torn though. When I saw the leaked video before the game was released I was actually quite disturbed. I'm not an idiot, so I knew that there was a lot of context missing from the recording, but even though I acknowledged this, I still found it to be unnecessary. I don't know how many people have actually played Modern Warfare 2 in this thread, but you don't have to shoot anyone to progress with the game in that scene. You can get through that level without firing a single bullet at a civilian. You are forced to walk through and watch it happen, but you don't have to kill anyone to progress until you leave the building. I would like to think that Infinity Ward isn't retarded and didn't put it in for the soul purpose of garnering controversy to sell the game. I agree that what makes the whole thing so fucked up is that it's a level, and not a cut scene. Being forced to participate even if it is just walking and watching, is there is a completely different experience.
My favourite game series is Metal Gear Solid, and I played the first game through to the end when I was 13 or so. At the end Liquid makes a comment about how he saw the joy in your eyes as you slaughtered hundreds of your brothers and I actually felt like shit afterwords. In the second game they introduced the stamina bar and you could play the entire game without killing anyone. From that point on, I have always played Metal Gear through with no kills because it doesn't feel right to kill people when you have the option not to. After I got to the no Russian scene, I immediately went into subdue mode and didn't want to risk shooting anyone. Once I succeeded, I got outside and I was forced to kill Police to continue. This irritates me a lot. I don't really know where Infinity Ward intended to go with this level. I want to believe they were trying to force a comment about how we play games and try to dabble in that bridge between games and other media, but I don't' really feel that they succeeded. Maybe if I had the option to get through it by non lethal means, the ending would have meant more. Maybe different outcomes to how you handled the situation would have let more gamers feel better about the game.
I also find that everyone who uses the "it's just a game" excuse is equally as ignorant as the people who are constantly bitching about games being the reason for violence.
I'm done.

[Ack]

Do any of you considering this a potential strength of gaming? Watching a similar scene in a movie might bug us, but not in the same way that playing through it does. Now some of us are ok with it, but some of us that have had no issue with violence in games in the past are obviously disturbed...it's an emotional response that the other mediums couldn't necessarily get out of us as easily, because we're only now experiencing it first-hand, at least as a mock-up.

I know that sounds a bit morbid, and I'm not saying things like this should be done often in video games, but I think it's an interesting perspective. I will point out that you could probably walk through most of this level without firing a shot, or only going for the armed security guards, but the point is you're still involved in the mass-slaughter of...what, a hundred virtual inhabitants in a game that more or less may just be the same as the faceless people you pass every day on the street?

Personally I have mixed feelings on the scene. It shows to me both a strength in gaming(allowing us to experience things that we don't necessarily get through other mediums) while also causing the stomach to churn a bit at the thought of playing the game. Yet, there's also the part that would enjoy playing it, whether we admit it or not. And there's the sickening realization that while we're only seeing it in the framework of a video game, there are people out there who are perfectly capable of actually doing this.

I have respect for the Modern Warfare games in what they're trying to capture, and I can pinpoint the moment when I realized this. I was relating certain sections of the game to my dad about a year ago, describing some of the various missions and such. In the middle of describing one of the levels, he stopped me and said "Son, I've actually done that." Thing is, my father was a U.S. Army Ranger, active in the military through the 1980s. He actually has done some of the things depicted in these games. At the time I felt ashamed about being wowed by some video game when someone I know had experienced these things in real life.

Thinking back on it a while later, I considered it a strength of the game: to attempt to instill some of the emotions of being under fire and seeing what the military accomplishes in the real world, while still safely sitting in my room. If I have any complaint, it is only that it might be conveyed as too glorious. But then here with are, with this "No Russian" level. War and the politics of war are ultimately brutal and cruel things, and I believe this level conveys that.

At the same time, many of us who play it realize that this isn't real, so we're not bothered by it. I think that's perfectly understandable, and I highly doubt it will incite any of us to actually attempt something like this. But it does happen unfortunately, and that's something we can't deny.

Sorry I rambled a bit.

[(-_-)]

Thank you Ack. I think you better articulated how I feel than I did.

[Ack]

Thank you Ack. I think you better articulated how I feel than I did.

It's cool, and to be totally honest I know exactly what you mean about attempting to not kill folks in games if possible. I tranqued everybody I could in the MGS games.

[jfrost]

To the folks who said that this would be more acceptable if it were a cutscene, I would say that the level is supposed to convey uneasiness about shooting innocent civilians. Making it playable has thus an important narrative function.

[the7k]

Sorry if someone mention this already - didn't read all the posts.

The problem I had with "No Russian" is that it didn't really do enough to make me feel bad for what my character was doing.

What if, instead of it just starting you off mowing people down, you first had to make your way to your team as a civilian yourself? As you were making your way to your team, where you would then suit up and mow down, you'd have to deal with these people as a normal person would. You'd hear them talk amongst themselves, talk to you, talk about you. Make most of them act very nice and just, in general, make it seem like these people were friendly and salt of the earth folks.

Then mow them down.

That's how you do it. You have to humanize them, otherwise it just becomes GTA.

[equalsign]

I honestly wish they'd make more games like this - where you are the bad guy.

And killing innocent people is nothing new in video games. If you remember, that was the biggest draw and most controversial game element of Grand Theft Auto III - that you could go on a shooting spree and run people over with stolen vehicles.

The only difference between GTAIII and MW2 is that the latter would be considered much more graphically realistic.

GTA III and Vice City had a somewhat cartoonish quality to it and many of the people in the game were all annoying or portrayed in some sort of negative way. You sort of felt like everybody was bad in those games, including your character. I haven't played more recent GTA games, but somehow those two managed to make violence comical and even funny. It wasn't quite as affecting as this scene in Call of Duty.

Also, most of the killing innocents in those games was optional.

Even if you choose to play the level, you don't have to shoot the civilians.

People aren't actually that way. It's a realistic game. That's just the way it is. I disagree entirely that a video game should have to soften the blow or makes things comical if it doesn't want to. To me, that would disrespect the subject matter more.

[equalsign]

LittleBigPlanet is a palette. It's artistic in the same way that a bin of legos or a blank canvas is artistic. Very little in its gameplay or subject matter was artistic, or even especially interesting for that matter.

We can disagree about the artistic merit of Littlebigplanet and for the sake of argument I'll even go along and concede it's a set of tools rather than an original work, but my larger point was that games as a form of entertainment to be taken seriously do not require maturity in the form of adult themes or other violence. Games like Mario can (and I think are) taken seriously, but they are certainly not "mature" in the way most would interpret the term.

As for whether or not the depicted scene is sophomoric hyper-violence, I suppose it's largely a matter of interpretation but I really do feel like this definition of "sophomoric" fits the portrayal of violence in this scene:

"conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature"

...and if this isn't hyper-violent then I don't know what is. The victims in this scene might as well be pieces of meat thrown in front of a firing squad, then drug bleeding across the ground. That's about how much connection to the narrative they're given.

I do agree with you that games don't have to have adult content to be taken seriously. I guess when I read "They're just GAMES after all" I took your saying that to be a bit more aggressive a statement against adult themes in video games.

I really think we're just going to have to agree to disagree with the sophomoric violence bit. I know its been said before, but you do not have to shoot the civilians if you don't want to. I personally think many people won't. To me its an almost disheartening look at the power of the killing power of the weapons we've made. Big guns plus unarmed targets equals slaughter. I can't really see any other way to look at it. Having recognizable people and characters relative to the plot be slaughtered would kinda defeat the idea of terrorism they were trying to convey and would send an entirely different impression to the player. To apply focus would be to lose scope. You would be concerned with those few people and forget the rest. That would have been a mistake in my eyes.

I really doubt that this scene was an afterthought to Infinity Ward. I'm sure they gave it a ton of attention. I know this will sound really bad when I say it, but the characters in this scene did have their own unique death animations. It wasn't just copy paste. I'll probably play this someday. I think when I do I'll enjoy playing as someone who is neither the hero, nor the heroic villain. This level wasn't made to be fun and wasn't made to be entertaining. It may sound odd, but I'm interested to see at least some games go this direction.