Hip Hop/Rap Fanatics Unite!

[stickem]

I'd also disagree on the "he has always made good music" argument - he's not a very compelling lyricist, a very gifted rapper, nor is Lewis' production anything interesting (it all has a "been there, done that, seen better" feel).

I've been trying my hardest NOT to chime in on Mackelmore, because when it comes to music (or art in general) I tend to try to stick to the "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" thing. And with Mackelmore's music, I...

X2

[J T]

he's not gay enough, not black enough, not art enough, and not hip hop enough... but he has always made good music.

While some may make those kinds of superficial claims, I don't think it is fair to dismiss all critique of the connections/disconnections between his race/class/gender/sexuality and his lyrics as "people are mad he's not X enough". There's a lot going on here as regards cultural appropriation of various minority groups, neoliberalist feel good bullshit, and race/gender politics more broadly that shouldn't just be swept aside under the guise of "fuck the haters, he seems sincere and I dig the beat".

I'd also disagree on the "he has always made good music" argument - he's not a very compelling lyricist, a very gifted rapper, nor is Lewis' production anything interesting (it all has a "been there, done that, seen better" feel).

Dsh, I don’t understand how you can call out “neo-liberalism bullshit” as a critique and expect me to then take you seriously when you start talking about “cultural appropriation” in the same post.  Isn’t cultural appropriation a neo-liberalist complaint, at least in the way that you and the Spin author seem to be using the term?  And aren’t we, as a bunch of old white guys talking on the internet about how “hip hop is a culture” appropriating from that culture just by listening to and debating the merits of that music?   Is it possible for a white rapper to NOT appropriate black culture, or will they always be doing so by virtue of the fact that they are white?  Or is it fair to say that hip hop is so large and universal now 35+ years since it started, that it can’t just be considered a black thing anymore, even if its roots are definitely so?  If we were to say white people should not be involved in hip hop, isn’t that even more racially problematic to say something akin to “aw no, that’s colored music boy.  Put those turntables away and pick up a banjo.”  In my mind, that’s a step in the wrong direction. 

Is it unfair that white artists get more money and accolade?  Yes.  But is it the fault of a white artist like Macklemore?  I don’t think so, not entirely anyway, and especially not with someone that is so conscious of it and tries to work around it.  It’s more a cultural concern.  Macklemore raps from his perspective and by being himself and being sincere, rather than rapping about experiences he hasn’t lived like being raised in the ghetto or experiencing cultural oppression, his experience is a white experience and connects with white people that have money and buy his records.  Honestly, I’m aware that some of his appeal for me is because we seem to have had similar experiences in life, and some of that comes virtue of us being of the same race and culture.  That doesn’t mean I don’t like black artists though.  I’ve listened to hip hop since the 80s and I’ve liked everything from Tribe to Wu-Tang to Kool Keith to Aesop Rock.  I think what’s got people up in arms is really the fan base of Macklemore’s that don’t like hip hop other than what he does and seem to have a distaste for black artists.  Admittedly, it was weird for me to go to his recent shows where I was surrounded by an audience predominantly made up of teenage white girls who couldn’t rap along to the historically famous hip hop tracks from the opening DJ even when asked to fill in the words for the chorus.  But unlike others that have seen this as reason to sift through his material looking for things to hate, as the two articles we have now discussed definitely do, I am comfortable in saying that hip hop is a big enough umbrella term to include people like Macklemore now, even if his hits are more pop.  You know, so are Florida’s or Pitbull’s tracks though.  Hip hop and pop have been in bed together for decades now. 

And you can’t deny that he has worked hard.  If you watch all of that video I posted, you’ll see that he was vomiting from food poisoning only hours before going on stage to finish out three nights of sold out shows in the Key Arena at the end of his world tour (which he rocked) .  Not to mention, the guy hardly slept throughout that tour because he booked gigs between show dates all over the country.  You may not like his music style, but I don’t think your dismissal is entirely fair either.  Ryan Lewis’ beats have pop flair, but they aren’t just fluff.  He clearly listens broad and incorporates elements of not only hip hop history into what he does, but also other genres.  There’s some Irish folk in Irish Celebration, some country/folk in Cowboy Boots, some marching band music in Victory Lap.  To write this off as talentless just because it’s popular is to miss the versatility and facility of a producer that can clearly navigate different musical realms and reintegrate them into a popular hip hop context.  Even the piano vamps and drum thumps of the highly popular Can’t Hold Us demonstrate a remarkable ability to craft pop tunes that get crowds up on their feet.  As for the lyrics, I think they’re thought provoking much of the time, so I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree there.  No disrespect to Kendrick, but I certainly don’t see how “Bitch don’t kill my vibe” deserves more respect.  Is that because I’m racist, or not sexist?  Like trying to answer how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know.  

[MC Rex Rexler]

Method Man just might be my favorite Wu member to listen to at this point.

but... Ghostface.

I always loved GZA, Deck and Raekwon the most. It seems like people ALWAYS cite Ghostface as their favorite but... he hasn't done as much for me.

But hey, at least he's a better MC than RZA and U-God.

[dsheinem]

he's not gay enough, not black enough, not art enough, and not hip hop enough... but he has always made good music.

While some may make those kinds of superficial claims, I don't think it is fair to dismiss all critique of the connections/disconnections between his race/class/gender/sexuality and his lyrics as "people are mad he's not X enough". There's a lot going on here as regards cultural appropriation of various minority groups, neoliberalist feel good bullshit, and race/gender politics more broadly that shouldn't just be swept aside under the guise of "fuck the haters, he seems sincere and I dig the beat".

I'd also disagree on the "he has always made good music" argument - he's not a very compelling lyricist, a very gifted rapper, nor is Lewis' production anything interesting (it all has a "been there, done that, seen better" feel).

Dsh, I don’t understand how you can call out “neo-liberalism bullshit” as a critique and expect me to then take you seriously when you start talking about “cultural appropriation” in the same post.  Isn’t cultural appropriation a neo-liberalist complaint, at least in the way that you and the Spin author seem to be using the term?  And aren’t we, as a bunch of old white guys talking on the internet about how “hip hop is a culture” appropriating from that culture just by listening to and debating the merits of that music?   Is it possible for a white rapper to NOT appropriate black culture, or will they always be doing so by virtue of the fact that they are white?  Or is it fair to say that hip hop is so large and universal now 35+ years since it started, that it can’t just be considered a black thing anymore, even if its roots are definitely so?  If we were to say white people should not be involved in hip hop, isn’t that even more racially problematic to say something akin to “aw no, that’s colored music boy.  Put those turntables away and pick up a banjo.”  In my mind, that’s a step in the wrong direction. 

Is it unfair that white artists get more money and accolade?  Yes.  But is it the fault of a white artist like Macklemore?  I don’t think so, not entirely anyway, and especially not with someone that is so conscious of it and tries to work around it.  It’s more a cultural concern.  Macklemore raps from his perspective and by being himself and being sincere, rather than rapping about experiences he hasn’t lived like being raised in the ghetto or experiencing cultural oppression, his experience is a white experience and connects with white people that have money and buy his records.  Honestly, I’m aware that some of his appeal for me is because we seem to have had similar experiences in life, and some of that comes virtue of us being of the same race and culture.  That doesn’t mean I don’t like black artists though.  I’ve listened to hip hop since the 80s and I’ve liked everything from Tribe to Wu-Tang to Kool Keith to Aesop Rock.  I think what’s got people up in arms is really the fan base of Macklemore’s that don’t like hip hop other than what he does and seem to have a distaste for black artists.  Admittedly, it was weird for me to go to his recent shows where I was surrounded by an audience predominantly made up of teenage white girls who couldn’t rap along to the historically famous hip hop tracks from the opening DJ even when asked to fill in the words for the chorus.  But unlike others that have seen this as reason to sift through his material looking for things to hate, as the two articles we have now discussed definitely do, I am comfortable in saying that hip hop is a big enough umbrella term to include people like Macklemore now, even if his hits are more pop.  You know, so are Florida’s or Pitbull’s tracks though.  Hip hop and pop have been in bed together for decades now. 

And you can’t deny that he has worked hard.  If you watch all of that video I posted, you’ll see that he was vomiting from food poisoning only hours before going on stage to finish out three nights of sold out shows in the Key Arena at the end of his world tour (which he rocked) .  Not to mention, the guy hardly slept throughout that tour because he booked gigs between show dates all over the country.  You may not like his music style, but I don’t think your dismissal is entirely fair either.  Ryan Lewis’ beats have pop flair, but they aren’t just fluff.  He clearly listens broad and incorporates elements of not only hip hop history into what he does, but also other genres.  There’s some Irish folk in Irish Celebration, some country/folk in Cowboy Boots, some marching band music in Victory Lap.  To write this off as talentless just because it’s popular is to miss the versatility and facility of a producer that can clearly navigate different musical realms and reintegrate them into a popular hip hop context.  Even the piano vamps and drum thumps of the highly popular Can’t Hold Us demonstrate a remarkable ability to craft pop tunes that get crowds up on their feet.  As for the lyrics, I think they’re thought provoking much of the time, so I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree there.  No disrespect to Kendrick, but I certainly don’t see how “Bitch don’t kill my vibe” deserves more respect.  Is that because I’m racist, or not sexist?  Like trying to answer how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know.  

thanks for the thoughtful post - I do appreciate it. I am about to go teach or I'd give it a more complete answer, and i will try to do so later tonight.

In brief, no - concern about "cultural appropriation" is not "neoliberal bullshit". The "neoloberal bullshit" I was referring to (and that I think the articles are referring to) is the idea that Macklemore somehow absolves or adequately addresses the dynamics of race/gender that he folds into his lyrics and music. He's preaching to a choir, and even worse he's a preacher that addresses oppression but doesn't speak from a place of personal experience with it.

I don't disagree that Macklemore can be considered hip hop or that hip hop is a big tent. He's clearly a hip hop artist by any/all measures. But he's not a good one, by mine. I dislike him, in part, because I think his lyrics aren't so much speaking truth to power (which I find admirable in hip hop) as they are speaking guilt assuaging to white/straight audiences through borrowing enough signifiers from oppressed groups to "tactfully toe the line". It just seems so calculated and inauthentic, which are characteristics I don't like in genres of music that I associate as ideally experimental, risky, political, etc. in its sound/production and its lyrics.

I don't care how hard he's working on his tour or how his audiences respond to him. One can certainly value music on those grounds, but I generally don't hold those criteria in much esteem.

[TSTR]

i am white and all i listen to is project pat/three 6

[stickem]

i am white and all i listen to is project pat/three 6

Them, kingpin skinny pimp, playa fly....the list can go on for good memphis rappers. Even white boy lil wyte.

[TSTR]

i am white and all i listen to is project pat/three 6

Them, kingpin skinny pimp, playa fly....the list can go on for good memphis rappers. Even white boy lil wyte.

Dood Lil Wyte is straight fire! That guy has mad flow.

[noiseredux]

TSTR, did you hear Juicy J's last album? Some solid stuff on there.

[TSTR]

TSTR, did you hear Juicy J's last album? Some solid stuff on there.

Yeah man, it's like he just keeps getting better and better the more he blows up.

[stickem]

i am white and all i listen to is project pat/three 6

Them, kingpin skinny pimp, playa fly....the list can go on for good memphis rappers. Even white boy lil wyte.

Dood Lil Wyte is straight fire! That guy has mad flow.

If you like early triple 6, like tear da club up, another group in memphis called krucifix klan sound just like them. Or the main guy evil pimp. I'm not sure which group was first.