World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[dsheinem]

I could never teach high school and have to worry about coddling parents' precious little children by keeping them from confronting any thing they may find troubling. But, hey, history and knowledge and critical thinking have been abandoned by so many, I suppose this kind of shit is going to get worse not better.

It is absolutely fair to compare elements of Trump's rise and his appeal to elements of Hitler's rise and his appeal (populism, demagougery, scapegoating of minorities, etc.) up to a particular point where the comparisons don't make sense (yet?). That he's endorsed by and celebrated by neo-Nazis isn't a coincidence, and it would and should be especially alarming to a teacher previously recognized for thier knowledge of the Holocaust.

[J T]

On a separate note, I would like to make a political prediction. Take this with a GIANT grain of salt please, but here's my forecast. I think Trump will be impeached and it will be the republican members of congress that rig the game to make it happen, knowing that the democrats won't fight them on this. If you look over Trump's policies and the things he says, he is not a republican (he's not a democrat either, by the way). The republican leaders want a traditional republican president who will play by their rules and they think Pence will be that man, not a loose cannon like Trump. Trump plays for his own self interest, not to be a party puppet. A lot of dyed-in-the-wool republicans who were burned by Trump in the primaries, like Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio, Chris Christie, and Ted Cruz are all popping up in other places now to focus their ambitions elsewhere within the party. After losing the presidency bid, some of them quickly shifted to getting their top-choice republicans in the house and senate, and they've stacked the deck in their favor. Republicans stalled on the supreme court choice so they could make it, and every last domino is almost in place for a GOP takeover to fall into place. The last step is simply to throw Donald Trump under the bus and reign supreme.

This post is admittedly all conspiratorial thinking on my part, and you should not put a lot of stock in it. It's a made up idea and it's based on very little evidence, but I smell political theatre brewing right now and I wanted to venture a guess on what's next. Trump recently went back on his plans to fully repeal Obamacare, and is now saying we should still make sure you can't be denied healthcare for a pre-existing conditions. While that's a small bit of music to my ears if its real, I can already hear the right-wing pulling their pitchforks off of the rack and readying the mob. I'm sorry if you believed Trump was your smart businessman savior that would bring back jobs to America, but I think Trump's brand was used as a tool to load the whitehouse and DC with republicans and now that Trump has done that job, he'll be ousted by his own party so it can go back to business as usual.

Again, I don't really have strong beliefs in what I am saying right now, I just have a sneaking suspicion and figured I would call it now just to see if I'm right later, though I think this would be a pretty gross move since a lot of people thought they voted for Trump to buck the system, not to entrench it in the old ways.

[Tanooki]

You keep saying he is a democrat. You clearly do not understand what a democrat is.

You fit right in with the thought police left, spin that to fit your truth. Whatever works right to troll me as you seem to make it your job out of everything said in this thread you go with that and it's laughably telling.

He's actually identified himself with the Democrat party a long time until recently when he decided he didn't like where the party is headed. What exactly is a Democrat to you because the Democrat party now is not one my dad would recognize and he was a staunch Democrat his entire life.

Thank you for calling him on his shit, even if you did or did not mean to defend my post. I follow politics quite a bit, probably more than most should and I know this guys beliefs, not what the media says they are. He is what was once a democrat in Clinton 90s and before, but he is NOT a democrat of now that flew hard left (at least visibly so as a good many keep quiet.) It's like look at the policies of the 60s Kennedy had, but todays standards that guy would be a Republican...times change, beliefs don't, and parties can abandon you. Had Trump not been an amoral twat I'd have been happy to vote for him as unlike I think many here, I did read his entire set of campaign promises on his website. And many of these same ideas are old school democrat principles that even now some are coming on TV saying they'd do this and work with Trump next year. Imagine that eh?


Exhuminator thanks for that huge post with links images and the rest from yesterday evening as it is VERY telling and nice to see both sides of the true media story being told, just not what is convenient to fit the politics of the left.


JT I'll play and publicly:
- Would I feel that, no. And some black people don't. Because once you get beyond the rhetoric of it and the problems that spiraled out from it, I couldn't support such a movement with the cop killings and fights with regular people it has inspired. Kind of sounds similar to liking Trumps stance, but distancing themselves from the baggage for those who voted for him. Whether people like it or not ALL LIVES MATTER, not some.
- Would I feel safe, hell no, people would be pissed political party or not, you couldn't trust anyone wouldn't punch you out, throw stuff, or get insulting in a fury.
- Given the media coverage if I were not straight, I probably would be paranoid, but if the coverage was fair as Exhuminator showed as you saw him being supportive and flying in hand a rainbow flag I'd feel fine.
- Hillary or Trump I wouldn't feel good about the gender to wage gap as neither party has done shit to truly correct it other than lip service for the most part. If the left cared about it, they could have regulated that back in Obama's first 2 terms when they owned congress widely so.

The bathroom one I can't answer fairly as I don't feel a genetic male or female, cosmetics or not redone, should be using the bathroom so I side with the religious types and freaked out parents (and I have a 5 year old girl) on that one. If that offends someone, tough. Ever since that garbage has gone down any public toilet that has more than one in it, I take her in with me and stand outside the door. If someone tries any shit they'll be beaten within an inch of their life.

[J T]

Because the phrase "Black lives matter" really seems to piss some of you off, I want to address it. This movement grew out of the disproportionate amount of black people who are killed by police, particularly those who did not pose a threat. It's not meant to say that other lives don't matter, but that black people in particular are being shot dead more often by cops. This isn't meant to say that cops don't have a hard job that requires making hard choices.

I know the phrase "black lives matter" doesn't sit well with a lot of people, but don't lose the point just because you don't like the poorly crafted slogan. Try imagining it like this. You're sitting at the dinner table and everyone is eating heaps of food, but your plate is empty. You say "I need some food!" and everyone else at the table corrects you and says "No no, son. We all need some food." Only we're not talking about eating dinner, we're talking about whether you get shot or not.

Add to this the disenfranchised history of the black man and the mistrust you would have to have after something like the revelations that the FBI's CoIntelPro secretly worked to discredit Martin Luther King and break up his family, or that caused internal strife and mistrust between the black panthers, which started as a community breakfast program for kids of busy black families. That's not even mentioning the many other years of slavery and oppression they faced.

I'm not saying "white lives don't matter" when I say "black lives matter." I am a white dude. I of course think my life matters. I'm also not saying "blue lives don't matter." They do, but as Dave Chapelle said on SNL last night

Blue lives matter. What, was you born a police? That is not a blue life. That’s a blue suit. If you don’t like it, take that blue suit off, find a new job, ’cause I’m going to tell you right now, if I could quit being black today, I’d be out of the game.

What I am saying is "stop shooting black people." I'm saying quit making this a secondary issue that we'll get to later while people, black people in particular, are dying now.

[J T]

Also, on the transgender bathroom issue. I hope you clicked the link, because if you want trans people to be forced to use the bathroom that fits the gender they were assigned at birth, then you are going to see a lot of female-to-male trans people who look something like this going into your daughter's bathroom:



And these people won't have giant signs around their neck that say "Hello! I used to be a woman but now I identify as a man! This is why I am legally required to use the women's restroom now."

I understand you want to protect your daughters, but you're going in the wrong direction and fighting boogiemen that don't exist. There aren't a bunch of heterosexual creeper dudes who rely on transgender bathroom rights to sneak into your daughter's bathroom stall while disguised in drag to be permitted entrance. That's just silly. You should be much more worried about typical cisgender men doing typical cisgender men things to your daughter than someone who now identifies as a woman and just wants to be treated that way.

I mean, what if you got your way and trans-men had to use women's bathrooms because they were assigned a female gender at birth. You would have all these people that looked like men going into your daughter's restroom. Now, if there are any actual nefarious creeper straight dudes who want to sneak in and molest your children, you just made it easier for them because they don't have to be dressed in drag to get in the bathroom anymore (not that there were really any protections at the bathroom door to begin with).

[BogusMeatFactory]

Tanooki, I am sorry that I am right and you are wrong.

[marurun]

Some people just don't want to accept that their failures are their own and despite having every opportunity short of being born rich they didn't reach their full potential. Someone must take the blame, and it isn't them.

I don't think this is an accurate, appropriate, or healthy way to look at the issue of white privilege. White privilege is not some magical boost or get out of jail free card. It doesn't mean white people can't be victims of the system or downtrodden. What it means is if you are not white (or not male in the case of male privilege) you face additional challenges or barriers to success or fairness in American society. These barriers don't require folks to be racist or sexist to implement them. It is a set of assumptions about the "average" American (white) or the average business-person (white male) or the average criminal (black male) or whatever that subconsciously shapes our behaviors.

White privilege doesn't mean rural whites are responsible for their better-paying blue-collar jobs drying up. That is absolutely a function of the modernization of the economy and globalization. White privilege doesn't hold small towns together when those jobs disappear. Now, Trump's offered solutions won't fix these problems (and I'm not sure they can reasonably be fixed to the rural white votes' satisfaction). But it is unfair to blame them for their misfortunes. This also doesn't mean that privilege doesn't exist. We are not a post-racial, post-sexist society, and to claim we are ignores the vast challenges non-whites and women still face in America. And it doesn't make light of the challenges ALL Americans face. But not all Americans face the same challenges, even if they otherwise have relatively equal circumstances.

[Forlorn Drifter]

I'm going to state my piece, and do my best to be as even-handed and honest as I can. I'm hoping not to anger anyone, and to say what I mean to say in a correct, inoffensive fashion. I've had trepidation about posting anything, being as things are so hot around the election currently. However, I feel as though another voice I believe would be similar to Sarge's would be useful, and maybe it can help me work out some of my own feelings about the election.

To start off, I will say with no reservations that brunoafh's actions were horrible, and his ban was the correct action, especially considering his lack of activity on the boards up until that post. I also believe that throughout this thread, from the week before the election until now, people in every group have been uncharitable and quick to misinterpret what others have been saying, but being as brunoafh's actions have been the only ones to the extreme (from what I've seen- I've been missing a lot in this thread), I'll chalk it up to environment of the situation as of current.

So... I voted for Trump. I was unsure of it when I pressed that button, I was unsure of it as I walked out of the line, and I'm still unsure of it today. I thought of voting third party, but from the options, all of the ones most aligned with me had the least chance of success. Whether the correct choice or not, I chose to pick, what was in my mind, the lesser of the two evils presented in the main parties. At this point, I'm questioning my choice due to the overall rhetoric (from both sides, mind you) and the uptick in racial/sexual identity/ethnic based crimes going on.

I honest to God did not imagine we would see things such as this popping up. In honesty, I believe it was my own naivete, mixed with the fact that the fear of such things has seemed overblown in the past elections I have been aware of. I say that, with both of the elections I can truly remember being the ones giving President Obama office. I believe that if McCain or Romney had won either of those elections, we would not have seen this. Because of that belief, I assumed it was the same with this election, but it appears I was wrong. I sincerely apologize for that, as someone who had their first chance to vote for a president this election. With the handful of racists I am aware of in my life (namely, my grandparents on both sides, and my father to a lesser extent), I knew they would not commit these things, and I have listened and watched them denounce them, which puts me in an odd position for what I've observed. Knowing what I do now, I will work as best as I can to fight these things as I see them, or through my representatives if need be.

As to my reasons for voting for Trump, they align similarly to Sarge's. I believed I was picking the lesser of two evils, although that may have been blindly looking at it in a way that would potentially benefit me as an individual. His positions on Childcare issues seemed appealing to me, I'm a fan of his intentions for infrastructure, and his positions on the issues in the next farm bill were either the same as or more appealing than Mrs. Clinton's. Looking at other issues, it was generally a case of hoping for the best with what information was given. I had hopes for his views on Veteran Affairs reform, cybersecurity (in which I understand some of these points were a jab at Mrs. Clinton and her "email scandal", though I do believe this is a point that needs some thought), and as far as health care, I hoped for nothing else than a removal of the fine for not being insured. Looking at it now, it feels selfish and shortsighted, but at the same time, my vote for anyone else would have been similar, if we are to be completely honest. I personally paid little heed to the immigration rhetoric, again looking back at my naivete, assuming it was exaggerated points to hit on an issue important to parts of the Republican base.

My conscience is weighing on me at this time, and I'm hoping and praying that despite everything, Mr. Trump will either do a good job, or get nothing done and keep the status quo until the next election. I hope I haven't upset anybody, and I've made my reasoning somewhat clear. If not, I'm open to questions, but I want to be as clean and polite as possible, so if there's any confusion, frustration, or offense given, I'd ask that outline what it is and why, so that I may either better explain my position or see things in a different light.

Thanks everybody, and lets try to play nice.

[dsheinem]

Forlorn, I think that was a vey well worded post and I appreciate the reflective and honest nature of it. I especially appreciate your stated willingness to try and work towards improving things going forward and actively fighting against the bigotry carried out in Trump's name.

I absolutely respect your thought process in voting for Trump and the reasons you made that decision. I hope you'll find you can better work towards those goals you were hoping for once you and like-minded Trump supporters clarify what version of Trump you were or weren't voting for.

[marurun]

FD, thanks for sharing your conscience with us. I think you made the best choice you could with the info and experience available to you, which is what we all try to do (yes, even you folks I completely disagree with).