World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[foxhound1022]

Like I said, true colors. It really saddens me to see how much hate and utter contempt is coming from both sides of the aisle. This is why I abstained from voting.

[jp1]

I'm not digging the position that you're taking here, DSH. I don't believe in collective responsibility for hateful actions, and I don't think that Trump supporters have any more obligation than any other Americans to condemn these actions.

I am having a hard time drawing a distinction between what you wrote and the frequent calls for Muslims to condemn terrorism or the "black community" to condemn crime (or for liberals like me to condemn vandalism at protests against Donald Trump's election). We are a nation of individuals, and while we each have an individual responsibility to condemn these action, none of us has a special responsibility.

I'm torn here, because as much as I agree with this I don't think it is effective. For a movement to lose momentum it needs to lose the steam that got it going in the first place. Of course we are all responsible, but the more powerful voices are those who these bigots believe have their backs. It doesn't take much to stand up and say "I voted for Trump, but I don't support this."

When someone is unwilling to do so, even on some moral high ground of "I shouldn't have to." it concerns me as well. If you haven't got skeletons in your closet you shouldn't mind opening the door in the name of putting an end to all this nonsense.

[dsheinem]

I'm not digging the position that you're taking here, DSH. I don't believe in collective responsibility for hateful actions, and I don't think that Trump supporters have any more obligation than any other Americans to condemn these actions.

Many Trump supporters have been falling over themselves to explain why they aren't racist, etc. ...but I've not seen any actually take any kind of principled stand against all the hate being expressed in Trump's name this week. Where are the statements from RNC members, or Trump himself, or his surrogates denouncing these attacks? Surely they have more responsibility. Where are the social media posts condemning these actions by those who voted for him? Where are the coordinated efforts to report Trump-related vandalism and violence? Where are the calls on the right for the bigots who voted for Trump to stop doing what they are doing? Instead we get articles telling those being attacked to "calm down". Instead we get the "both sides" critique when there are big differences in both the number of illegal incidents and in the tenor of the (protected) speech coming from each camp.

I am having a hard time drawing a distinction between what you wrote and the frequent calls for Muslims to condemn terrorism or the "black community" to condemn crime (or for liberals like me to condemn vandalism at protests against Donald Trump's election). We are a nation of individual, and while we each have an individual responsibility to condemn these action, none of us has a special responsibility.

Individual Muslims DO regularly and loudly condemn terrorism. They also form coalitions and organize against it. They are also the most adversely affected by it.

There are many prominent black leaders who discuss the problems of crime within black communities. There are many black men and women doing visible work to try and address that violence on a daily basis.

Who on the right is denouncing post-election Trump-inflected acts of hate? All I hear is crickets.

That said, I'd love to find out that this is some effect of my own echo-chamber and that I'm wrong. I'd love to know that Trump has given a speech today to try and put an end to this. I'd love to know that Christian groups are out there protesting KKK marches. I'd love to know that Republicans in law enforcement who are so hell-bent on rounding up immigrants are now working tirelessly to find and arrest people who are committing hate crimes against them. I don't hear it, and I don't hear it because the less high-profile supporters (average Trump voters) are ignoring it, failing to put pressure on their institutions to stand up against hate, and are generally just "back to normal" now that the election is over.

[Jmustang1968]

All these extremes are silly. As with most everything things are typically never nearly as bad or as good as knee jerk sensational reactions make them out to be.

Racists werent suddenly racists because Trump was elected, but instead use that current political situation and the protests and the like as a focus for their attacks but not the cause. Racial tensions have been building well before this election.

There is a lot of misinformation and overreaction going around. People are calling hospitals to cancel appointments thinking they lost their healthcare already. Minority kids going to schools telling teachers they wont be able to talk to white people anymore. This message has grown some truths of Trump and his campaign and really blown them out of proportion and the opposition and media has fed into this.

People need to take a deep breath, evaluate things, and move forward from there.

[Tanooki]

These people might hold degrees, but clearly must never have received any kind of meaningful education indoctrination.

FTFY

But please, do continue. You've made me feel like a terrible soulless bigot, and J T has me so fearful of the incoming civil war, that I just dug up my war crate from the back woods.

Agreed same here. That rhetoric is exactly why so many with a piece of paper voted for Trump. It wasn't the baggage, it was the promise of policy, the promise of not another 4-8 years of what Obama started that rolled a lot of shit downhill into peoples laps who didn't deserve it. People suffering for years now with no end in sight under Clinton would be why they held their nose and voted for Trump. It's really not that hard to see and it's kind of disgusting calling them stupid or racist because they chose change over more of the political same. It's not like there was another choice. If enough did what I did and just bowed out of voting for either turd, then she would have won with a landslide if every right leaning or even left but hurting types just said fuck it and stayed home and the pain would have just kept on coming.

I'm sorry some peoples friends and associates are feeling suicidal over this, but facts remain what is done is done and it's time to move on and try and work together instead of tearing things further apart. In four years if it ends up being the senseless drama and it becomes reality, find a non-rotten candidate who can find a nice middle ground between what Obama and Trump offered without the baggage and punishment and you'll get your guy or girl in. Keep in mind bigoting behavior is on both sides. You claim the white majority are bigots trying to screw you, but you get a majority of minorities and women sticking it to the other group and placing them in a box makes you the same and no better.

I can't seemingly get this in as people are posting so fast, but I wonder if I should because I'll look like a quiet non voting Trump lover and tehrefore immediately branded as a Neanderthal racist douchebag.

[Blu]

I am having a hard time drawing a distinction between what you wrote and the frequent calls for Muslims to condemn terrorism or the "black community" to condemn crime (or for liberals like me to condemn vandalism at protests against Donald Trump's election). We are a nation of individuals, and while we each have an individual responsibility to condemn these action, none of us has a special responsibility.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said it better than any of us ever could.

"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."

Oh and this passage always resonates with me:

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

[dsheinem]

I just want to remind people that I have not once suggested that any or all Trump voters are racist.

They did vote for someone who is already allowing racism to flourish and have done jack shit about it.

Haven't people seen this shit?
Day 1

I know - just myself - of at least a half dozen people that I know that have been attacked or harassed since the start of this week that aren't included in the examples here. It might not be "totally widespread"...but how many incidents must there be before the right steps up to join in denouncing these things? What "proportion" is an ok one at which to be alarmed, and not one that has been "blown out"?

[jp1]

I am having a hard time drawing a distinction between what you wrote and the frequent calls for Muslims to condemn terrorism or the "black community" to condemn crime (or for liberals like me to condemn vandalism at protests against Donald Trump's election). We are a nation of individuals, and while we each have an individual responsibility to condemn these action, none of us has a special responsibility.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said it better than any of us ever could.

"Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds."

Oh and this passage always resonates with me:

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

Man, I wish desperately that our country could find someone with the wisdom and fortitude of MLK Jr. to help address the issues that are creeping up. Some amazing points in that, just as relevant and powerful today as when the man himself said them.

Thanks for posting that Blu.

[Tanooki]

I just want to remind people that I have not once suggested that any or all Trump voters are racist.

They did vote for someone who is already allowing racism to flourish and have done jack shit about it.

Haven't people seen this shit?
Day 1

Goes both ways you know right?
HS student beaten for supporting Trump on social media:
http://www.ktvu.com/news/216760384-story

50 year old man taken out of the car and beaten/curb stomped for voting to Trump:
http://ktla.com/2016/11/10/disturbing-v ... ote-trump/

Both sides are guilty of racism, bigotry, hatred, and violence. I've watched that thread you linked and it's disgusting but because someone wrapped up a few horrid stories doesn't make it a case of the majority like it is being blown out to be like.

[Exhuminator]

Like I said, true colors. It really saddens me to see how much hate and utter contempt is coming from both sides of the aisle. This is why I abstained from voting.

Nothing personal I promise, but I think that being an agnostic fence sitter is an irresponsible position once you've reached voting age. You could have voted for Johnson as a protest vote at least.

I just want to remind people that I have not once suggested that any or all Trump voters are racist.

Well, you sort of did suggest it actually, earlier in this thread:

If you are voting for Trump, you are either willingly siding with a fear-mongering, hate-spewing despot or you have unwillingly become that uneducated voter that he has said he "loves". That's it.

So in the quote above, you said a Trump voter is either consciously choosing racism by proxy, or they are simply uneducated. That's it. You went on to say that any other possibility outside those scenarios was still unethical. Who can argue with such concrete logic?



Oh well. The deal's done. Obama even shook on it.