Mosques

[vash23n]

Of course not. Bible scholars would be out of a job if they questioned the historical accuracy of the bible.

I think that you think that I'm talking about different people than I really am. I am not talking about religious Bible scholars. I'm talking about historians-- and no, not just the Christian one. It's not a question of Biblical accuracy.

You can't use a religious document as evidence as it's obviously biased. And for what it's worth, even the gospels were written decades after the fact. There are *no* contemporaneous records of Jesus at all.

Religious documents are regularly used in scholarly historical research. When writing has survived from ancient civilizations, there's usually a pretty good chance that it is religious in nature. Nobody on this thread has suggested that the Biblical gospels were written during the life of Christ. I have previously stated on this thread (more than once, I think) that I am aware of no existing written about and contemporary with Jesus. Vash23n has mentioned the possibility of some, but admitted he doesn't remember much about it and could be mistaken.

I'm beginning to think you haven't really read the last couple of pages of this thread.

I'm not sure how many historical documents exist period that aren't "obviously biased".

Yes there are many historians who are fascinated by the Bible and spend their life studying it. Not from a religious standpoint and they can work to judge accuracy by comparing to other written records of the time. There are historians who study a variety of literary works for similar reasons. They treat the Bible like they treat Dante's Inferno or the Iliad. It is like a giant jigsaw puzzle that will probably never be completed, people are drawn to it for that reason I think. I really wish I had these sources still, but I am sorry I do not. I actually took a quick look, but most of what I have is in regards to Napoleon Bonaparte who was my main area of focus. Sorry to throw something into the mix like that, but it sounds like a couple of people here may be able to build on it.

[Limewater]

I have been reading this awesome website. http://www.pocm.info/index.html

I'm about a third of the way through Plutarch's Isis and Osiris. Thus far I'm not seeing the POCM guy's case as being particularly strong on this one.

[Octopod]

There are definitely things I do not agree with him on, his view of atheist for one.

It is more the main concept that impresses me. Maybe it is apparent to others but I had never really considered it before.

[Limewater]

There are definitely things I do not agree with him on, his view of atheist for one.

It is more the main concept that impresses me. Maybe it is apparent to others but I had never really considered it before.

From looking at his page, I'm guessing that he got caught up in the whole Horus or Mithras thing, realized the cases for those were nonexistant, then decided to try to do better.

I fully admit that there are aspects of Christianity that appear in earlier religions, though. As I understand it, baptism, for one, has a long history in other religions.

[Octopod]

The guy is a Christian. It is not apparent until you are fairly far into his website. I guess some people would say he is not a Christian since he seems to believe in it in an odd way. No miracles, doesn't matter if Jesus existed or not etc..

When he says that "Christianity IS an ancient pagan religion" I fully believe that he is correct.

[Limewater]

The guy is a Christian. It is not apparent until you are fairly far into his website. I guess some people would say he is not a Christian since he seems to believe in it in an odd way. No miracles, doesn't matter if Jesus existed or not etc..

I'm with Christopher Hitchens on that one.

"I would say that if you don’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah, and that he rose again from the dead and by his sacrifice our sins are forgiven you’re really not in any meaningful sense a Christian."

[Octopod]

OT

My wireless keyboard is going haywire. I can not even get out a sentence without retyping it multiple times.


What you say about his faith makes sense though. I guess he can just believe in the judeo-christian god without being a Christian if that is what it is. I don't know, it is his deal not mine heh.

[Jrecee]

To throw this whole discussion back a few pages, why is everyone getting so upset about Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center wanting to burn copies of the Quran? After all, aren't they only exercising their constitutional freedoms? The same freedoms enjoyed by those seeking to build a Islamic cultural center in NYC. For the poster who commented that the pastor's lack of a permit should be enough to shut him down, isn't that just a thinly disguised attempt to deprive him of him constitutionally protected freedom of speech?

JY

I mentioned that comparison on page 32. Also, I was just mentioning that the fire permit could end up stopping him from doing this.

The difference between the two things though, would be that his is an act of hate, no better than the burning of american flags that his "enemies" engage in. He's basically saying "they stoop this low, so I will too". This isn't what the people building the mosque want, it is actually the same argument opponents to the mosque use "they don't build christian churches in Iran and Afghanistan so we shouldn't let them build mosques here." Just stooping to the same levels as your enemies.

[Octopod]

"Today, there are at least 600 churches in Iran"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran


That guy is really misinformed.

[Jimmy Yakapucci]

To throw this whole discussion back a few pages, why is everyone getting so upset about Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center wanting to burn copies of the Quran? After all, aren't they only exercising their constitutional freedoms? The same freedoms enjoyed by those seeking to build a Islamic cultural center in NYC. For the poster who commented that the pastor's lack of a permit should be enough to shut him down, isn't that just a thinly disguised attempt to deprive him of him constitutionally protected freedom of speech?

JY

I mentioned that comparison on page 32. Also, I was just mentioning that the fire permit could end up stopping him from doing this.

Didn't see that on page 32, but then again, I had a lot of pages to catch up on. The fire permit thing is kind of funny, though. I remember a number of years ago the held a Klan rally on a farm near where I used to live, complete with cross burning and all. Lots of people were upset about it but the only thing that they could do was to cite the guy for having an outdoor fire without a permit.

The difference between the two things though, would be that his is an act of hate, no better than the burning of american flags that his "enemies" engage in. He's basically saying "they stoop this low, so I will too". This isn't what the people building the mosque want, it is actually the same argument opponents to the mosque use "they don't build christian churches in Iran and Afghanistan so we shouldn't let them build mosques here." Just stooping to the same levels as your enemies.

I am not saying that he is the sharpest pencil in the box, but that he is trying to exercise the same rights that those seeking to build the mosque are.

I have not been following the whole mosque discussion religiously (no pun intended), so there is a question I have that may or may not have been answered. Why does the group seeking to build the mosque have their hearts set on that one spot of ground? It there no other land available in the area? With the depressed economy I would imagine that there would be lots of property for sale. I have never used the argument that they do not allow churches in Iran and Afghanistan, but I do wish that they would put it somewhere else.

JY