Mosques

[Limewater]

Of course not. Bible scholars would be out of a job if they questioned the historical accuracy of the bible.

I think that you think that I'm talking about different people than I really am. I am not talking about religious Bible scholars. I'm talking about historians-- and no, not just the Christian one. It's not a question of Biblical accuracy.

You can't use a religious document as evidence as it's obviously biased. And for what it's worth, even the gospels were written decades after the fact. There are *no* contemporaneous records of Jesus at all.

Religious documents are regularly used in scholarly historical research. When writing has survived from ancient civilizations, there's usually a pretty good chance that it is religious in nature. Nobody on this thread has suggested that the Biblical gospels were written during the life of Christ. I have previously stated on this thread (more than once, I think) that I am aware of no existing written about and contemporary with Jesus. Vash23n has mentioned the possibility of some, but admitted he doesn't remember much about it and could be mistaken.

I'm beginning to think you haven't really read the last couple of pages of this thread.

I'm not sure how many historical documents exist period that aren't "obviously biased".

[Hatta]

I'm talking about historians-- and no, not just the Christian one. It's not a question of Biblical accuracy.

I'm not sure a secular historian would fare too well if they denied the existence of Jesus. It's something of a sacred cow. I'm also sure that much of what they claim to "know" about history is really sketchy. The past is

Religious documents are regularly used in scholarly historical research. When writing has survived from ancient civilizations, there's usually a pretty good chance that it is religious in nature.

Yes, but you have to take them with a big grain of salt. Much of what is written in a religious document, by definition, is what the author wants to believe is true, and not what is actually true. Relying on a religious document to prove the existence of that religions central figure is circular reasoning, and invalid. The existence of the Iliad is a good reason to believe in a historical Troy, it's not a good reason to believe in a historical Athena.

[MrPopo]

[Religion is] very personal in modern western civilization. However, I don't think that's how it's been for most of human history over most of the inhabited planet.

The Jews would beg to differ.

I don't follow...

The Jews spent about 2000 years being kicked around all of Europe because they didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Seems pretty personal to me.

[Limewater]

The Jews spent about 2000 years being kicked around all of Europe because they didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Seems pretty personal to me.

Ah, I thought that was what you were getting at. I don't know if you're serious or joking. I'll assume you are serious, and thus ruin the joke if you're joking.

I was using "person" in the same sense ZeroAX was when he wrote, "I find it sad that something that is 100% personal, defines entire nations"

Here, he was referring to religion as a personal thing between an individual and some deity/nature/spirit/flying spaghetti monster. I was commenting that such an attitude seems to be fairly unique to modern western civilization. For most of the world and most of history, I don't think such thoughts even entered people's minds except in passing fancy. You were part of the religion (and government) of your people, and religion wasn't particularly personal. You might slaughter those people who live across the river because they worship the wrong deity (and you want their land), but that was a community thing, not an individual thing.

*EDIT* Changed "national" to "community" as I think it's more accurate. Nothing like communities slaughtering each other!

[Octopod]

Edit: I would actually like to discuss Limewaters Jesus is Horus comment but it is really way off topic I guess. Of course so is most of the thread.

I have no problem with going off-topic.

But seriously, the Jesus is Horus thing got pretty big on the internet a few years ago, but is based primarily on misinformation.

I didn't realize you meant it literally.

I have been reading this awesome website. http://www.pocm.info/index.html

You may not like it, I don't know. I will never again view Christianity in the same way I did before reading it though. I like that it relies on primary sources. He also never states that Jesus did or did not exist as that is beyond the scope of the topic.

[Octopod]

Josephus mention of Jesus has already been proven to have been a later addition by writers well after his death.

Helmut Koester, who is currently Morison Research Professor of Divinity and Winn Research Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Harvard Divinity School, has stated that there is absolutely zero evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus. I'll take his word for it for now.

Edit: My first claim is a fairly bold statement to make without providing a source so I'll try to find a good one.

[CRTGAMER]

Pastor dumb to burn books, racial overtones.
What happened to love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek?

General dumb to show a frightened weak front, stating more troops would die.
Sure it could be true, but image of a strong military got damaged by his statement.
Generals should leave politics to politics, why goad terrorists to do more killing?

[Octopod]

According to Wikipedia I am wrong, sort of. I can accept that.

"There is broad scholarly consensus that the passages referring to Christianity are genuine with one notable exception. The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been the subject of ongoing scholarly debate since the 17th century. Today, most modern scholars agree that it is only partially authentic"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus


I am finding sites that state the Testimonium Flavianum has been proven a forgery for quite some time now and others that claim the opposite. I am finding this on obviously biased sites though.

Either way Joshephus was born 37 years after Jesus death and wrote the Testimonium Flavianum way later in his life. Who knows?

[Jimmy Yakapucci]

To throw this whole discussion back a few pages, why is everyone getting so upset about Terry Jones and the Dove World Outreach Center wanting to burn copies of the Quran? After all, aren't they only exercising their constitutional freedoms? The same freedoms enjoyed by those seeking to build a Islamic cultural center in NYC. For the poster who commented that the pastor's lack of a permit should be enough to shut him down, isn't that just a thinly disguised attempt to deprive him of him constitutionally protected freedom of speech?

JY

[AppleQueso]

I don't think most of us are saying he shouldn't legally be allowed to do it, we just think he's extremely stupid for doing so. All he will accomplish is nothing at all at best, provoking Islamic extremists at worst.

The underlying implication of what you're saying is pretty obvious though; you're wanting to call these people hypocrites.