World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[J T]

Of course it's an intellectual shortcut. You read a fact check site when you don't want to do all the research yourself. Nobody has the time to investigate every single claim made. To accuse fact checkers of bias is fine if you have a valid reason to believe bias affects their determinations, but most people accuse them of bias because they don't like the facts.

[Ack]

JT, I know you're upset right now, but I gotta say you're not coming off very well. You've posted in multiple threads in the last few hours to rave about the opposition candidate and effectively declare "vote for my candidate or else we all die." Frankly, you're coming off just as much a zealot as to that which you are arguing against.

Relax, calm down, take a breather. Even if Trump is elected, which I doubt he will be, he's likely going to end up repeatedly butting heads against Congress, the Supreme Court, the actual employees in government service, and portions of the Republican party, if there even is a Republican Party by the time he is done. I doubt a Trump presidency will really be able to get much done.

I am also very curious about what political power, if any, the white working class voters will wield after this. Win or lose, I wonder if they have blown all of their clout in this election and will have much influence after this.

[Sarge]

Well, I do have a reason to, because they're human.

I've read way too many of the accompanying articles that will equivocate for a particular candidate, or be overly pedantic with another; and that's not even counting selection bias. I have no problem with facts. I have a problem with the interpretation of said data, which is often quite subjective and hotly debated; "truth" is much harder to determine in these cases.

[BogusMeatFactory]

Well, I do have a reason to, because they're human.

I've read way too many of the accompanying articles that will equivocate for a particular candidate, or be overly pedantic with another; and that's not even counting selection bias. I have no problem with facts. I have a problem with the interpretation of said data, which is often quite subjective and hotly debated; "truth" is much harder to determine in these cases.

Which is why you read the article itself, follow links and sources from the article and think critically. People from the opposite side of the argument cite websites that write things like, "The putrid criminal, Hillary Clinton." Guess what, already throwing that site un the trash. I would do the same if a democrat cited an article from the gawker media sites. People need to use their brains, stop reading headlines and think objectively for just a second.

[J T]

JT, I know you're upset right now, but I gotta say you're not coming off very well. You've posted in multiple threads in the last few hours to rave about the opposition candidate and effectively declare "vote for my candidate or else we all die." Frankly, you're coming off just as much a zealot as to that which you are arguing against.

You're right. I am upset, and anxious, and both of those emotions are fully justified. But this is not a time to relax and chill. I am normally calm and balanced in my approach to political discussion, and I get that it would feel good to vote for Trump if someone wants to flip a middle finger to the system because he is an outsider candidate and a human Molotov cocktail, but I've looked through the details for months now and Trump is on a whole other level of awfulness. Election day is in two days. I'm beyond giving him a politely nuanced analysis right now as we approach the eleventh hour.

• Trump has expressed interest in using our nuclear weapons.
  Trump has stiff tariff policies that would likely insight a trade war.
  Trump has advocated for murdering the families of terrorists, which is a war crime.
  Trump has no tolerance for political dissent and throws people out of his rallies, and has even encouraged violence against them. He also proposes restricting freedom of the press.
  Trump has claimed that global warming is a hoax created by the Chinese and is now proposing policies to set back efforts to prevent climate change.
  Trump wants to repeal Obamacare, which would cost billions and force the healthcare system to dramatically restructure yet again.
  Trump has suggested we not pay creditors less than we owe for our national debt, which would likely be disastrous to the economy.
  Trump wants to leave NATO. Much of the rest of the world hates Trump and is fearful for what his presidency will mean for the rest of the world.
  Trump routinely espouses conspiracy theories and acts as if they are true.
  Trump has happily been helped by Russian hackers and speaks highly of Vladimir Putin.
  Trump wants to ban Muslims from entering the country, especially refugees in need. He also wants to create a database for tracking Muslims in the country.
  Trump has called Mexicans rapists and he wants to build a wall between us and Mexico.
  Trump thinks its cool to use his celebrity to grab women by the pussy and routinely uses sexist language and demonstrates sexist attitudes. He now has multiple sexual assault allegations against him.
  Trump uses racist language and demonstrates racist attitudes.
  Trump wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency.
  Trump has never held political office and is extremely under-qualified for the job of US president. He is someone who doesn't seem to understand the basic reasons our government is structured the way that it is.
  Trump is exceptionally arrogant and says only he can fix the problems in our country.
  Trump is the first presidential candidate to refuse to release his tax returns, and all signs seem to suggest that he gets out of paying taxes, which he also said "makes me smart" during the debates.
  Trump is ostensibly a successful business man, but leaves behind a trail of failed business, bankruptcies, and unfulfilled debts and obligations.
  Trump has an upcoming case on allegations of rape to happen on Oct 14 and another upcoming case on fraud for Trump University on November 28.
  Trump uses fear tactics to convince people crime and lawlessness is running rampant, which contradicts data that crime has been dropping steadily since the 90s.

This isn't even close to everything wrong with him. I could go on, but I'm compiling most of this list from memory. I can barely find anything positive to say about him. If I were to do a Pros and Cons column for Hillary, there would be plenty of positives in the Pros line to balance out the Cons.

You say I'm "not coming off very well", but I'm complaining about a man who is coming off as utterly terrible. I feel like Americans have lost their minds. I'm embarrassed for my country that he has come this far in the campaign, and that he is even considered competition when compared to Hillary Clinton. She's not perfect, but she's a good candidate, and astronomically better than Donald Trump.

[dsheinem]

what's absolutely insane to me is that people create similar long lists about Clinton's problems and declare them both to be "equally bad". The biggest difference is that most of the things on JT's list and those like it about Trump is that they are lists of concerns based on actual recent statements made regularly/repeatedly by Trump himself (often during the campaign) and the lists about Hillary are based on paranoid Alex-Jones infused conspiracies about loose affiliations, out of context quotes from her past, disproven allegations, etc

These are not two "equally bad" candidates. If you don't think Clinton is a good choice, stay home, vote for Stein or Johnson or write someone in, or use the election as a personal impetus to do something meaningful in politics beyond just the minimally involved act of voting.

If you are voting for Trump, you are either willingly siding with a fear-mongering, hate-spewing despot or you have unwillingly become that uneducated voter that he has said he "loves". That's it. There are few if any "good arguments" - and no ethically respectable ones - for voting Trump. His entire life has been about perpetuating fraud, and people voting for him are just the latest suckers.

[Blu]

Remember that after people voted for the Brexit, the most common search was, "What is the Brexit?"

Informed voting is responsible voting. I can't say that I'm particularly enthused about Hillary's candidacy, but I'm not about to set the country back 50 years (though the attitudes that have emerged might mean that's too late) by casting a third party vote in a battleground state.

GG, USA.

[J T]

The best statistical prediction models now put Trump at a 33% chance of a win. I feel like our country is playing Russian roulette with a six shooter revolver that has two bullets in the chamber.

[Jmustang1968]

While I will not vote for Trump (probably not voting at all, but if I did, I still wouldn't vote Trump) I think a lot of the "if he gets elected, it will do this" talk is a good bit of hyperbole. I don't think he would set back our country x amount of years. I think in some ways, he represents roughly what 30-40% if not more of what the country already is or thinks. It would just be a representation of that group. He is getting a lot of support from the middle to lower middle class (mostly white) who have felt left out by Washington.

The president is often credited with much more power than he really wields. Just as I imagined if Bernie had won, a lot of his ideas and plans would've been impotent, mostly due to an uncooperative House & Senate, I think Trump will get the same treatment. He is a lot of bluster. The biggest legitimate fear I think he would represent would be to embarrass us and make us look bad internationally. I suppose it could also help legitimize, in their minds at least, some of his more radical supporters points of view.

What I do find interesting as well, is many of the Bernie supporters, who would trash Hillary on how bad she is/was, would then start throwing support behind her and talk her up as someone to vote for. Now, I get it and understand if you vote Democrat as you generally support that party's ideals, and I get it if someone wanted to vote against Trump. But how can Hillary be so bad in the primary, win the nomination, and then suddenly be so worthy of support?

[jp1]

While I will not vote for Trump (probably not voting at all, but if I did, I still wouldn't vote Trump) I think a lot of the "if he gets elected, it will do this" talk is a good bit of hyperbole. I don't think he would set back our country x amount of years. I think in some ways, he represents roughly what 30-40% if not more of what the country already is or thinks. It would just be a representation of that group. He is getting a lot of support from the middle to lower middle class (mostly white) who have felt left out by Washington.

The president is often credited with much more power than he really wields. Just as I imagined if Bernie had won, a lot of his ideas and plans would've been impotent, mostly due to an uncooperative House & Senate, I think Trump will get the same treatment. He is a lot of bluster. The biggest legitimate fear I think he would represent would be to embarrass us and make us look bad internationally. I suppose it could also help legitimize, in their minds at least, some of his more radical supporters points of view.

What I do find interesting as well, is many of the Bernie supporters, who would trash Hillary on how bad she is/was, would then start throwing support behind her and talk her up as someone to vote for. Now, I get it and understand if you vote Democrat as you generally support that party's ideals, and I get it if someone wanted to vote against Trump. But how can Hillary be so bad in the primary, win the nomination, and then suddenly be so worthy of support?

I wish you were wrong about that part, sadly it's clear that you aren't. I wonder what's the point of the Hillary/Bernie tangent though? Do you feel attacked as a conservative or a Republican? Hillary is a worse candidate than Bernie IMO, but an infinitely better candidate than Trump. It's really as simple as that. She is far from ideal, but she isn't dangerous in the way Trump is. Sure, he won't have the power some people think he might due to the Senate. I don't think that makes his disgusting ideology any less dangerous for our country.

The platform he would be allowed to use to showcase what 30-40% of America shamefully represents is plenty powerful enough to do serious damage in my opinion.