Homosexuality

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Breetai
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Breetai »

dsheinem wrote:1. The interpretation of Christian teachings on homosexuality as such are theologically contested and this uncertainty should serve as a reason to doubt the legitimacy of one's disapproval.
That Christianity teaches this is not theologically contested at the core of Christianity. There are some that do contest this, that is true, but that is a minority and mostly made of the "fringes" of Christianity (with a few exception). In every case of this happening, it gets heavily into semantics and interpreting the Bible (which Christianity is based on, claiming it to be the "Word of God") as having some ideas that do not match with the current times. In other words, the Bible clearly condemns acts of homosexuality, but there is a minority of Christian groups that reject certain things in the Bible as not being relevant anymore.
2. Homosexuality does not cause harm by any definition other than a particular religious one (a specific interpretation). Accepting scientific research for many things while disregarding science only on those issues where you find it inconsistent with your beliefs is disingenuous.
Well, the act might be a nature desire for some, but the physics of it generally require something unnatural to make it happen in order to avoid physical harm (ie. lubricant). The same cannot be said for hetrosexual sex (with exceptions, of course).
3. "Bearing witness" of that disapproval through any actions that push to institute God's law at the state level and apply it to everyone is tantamount to endorsing theocracy.
Well, yes and no (closer to the "yes" side, in my opinion). It is a case of Christians who let their beliefs be known in this way that they hope to impost elements of theocracy politically, or even, as you said, a total theocracy. However, I would say that most do this transparently; by acknowledging that they believe this because of their religious faith, or desire to keep "traditional values", and use that for their platform. Being allowed to do that is part of democracy. If enough voters agree with this and vote that way, then the laws of that land will reflect this. If a democratic government turns into a theocracy (or another form of government) though that process, then that is a result of democracy. Of course, under a diverse population, that is very unlikely to happen.
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Erik_Twice
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Erik_Twice »

Breetai wrote:Being allowed to do that is part of democracy. If enough voters agree with this and vote that way, then the laws of that land will reflect this.
These rights are outside of what can be voted, for they are the foundation of democracy itself and stronger than it's process. Voting against homosexual marriage makes as much sense as voting to see who can vote, voting instead of a fair trial and voting if someone must be equal and free.

The voting process is based on inalienable tenets stronger than Democracy itself and when that voting attacks the very own tenets it rests on, it stops having any value or being meaningful.

This is the problem. Those who oppose same sex marriage are using religious freedom as a tool to attack religious freedom. And that simply doesn't work.
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dsheinem
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by dsheinem »

Breetai wrote: In other words, the Bible clearly condemns acts of homosexuality, but there is a minority of Christian groups that reject certain things in the Bible as not being relevant anymore.
I'll grant that it is a minority of Christian groups that interpret the scriptures as being ok with loving, committed same-sex relationships, but you are mischaracterizing these groups by suggesting that they see certain things in the Bible as "no longer relevant" as the reason for their interpretation. Like all interpretations, it is grounded in an understanding of historical context, translations from original language, etc. It isn't simply a logic of "oh it no longer applies because we don't think it should."
Well, the act might be a nature desire for some, but the physics of it generally require something unnatural to make it happen in order to avoid physical harm (ie. lubricant). The same cannot be said for hetrosexual sex (with exceptions, of course).
Isn't breaking the hymen/"popping the cherry" equally as "unnatural" as conditioning the anus? You can look for ways to define homosexuality as "unnatural" all you want, but I am putting stock in scientific evidence to suggest that by any definition that matters to any field of science, homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality.
If a democratic government turns into a theocracy (or another form of government) though that process, then that is a result of democracy.
So..."hooray for tyranny of the majority?!" Even if it is unlikely, I can't abide any ideology that essentially thinks it has dominion over every aspect of life for every person and would seek to impose that on everyone it can if it can.

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Crabmaster2000
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Crabmaster2000 »

For arguments sake, say I believe in the Christain God. Why should I take his moral laws regarding any subject as absolute when God doesnt? If "Thou shall not Kill/Murder" is an objective moral law, and God is obviously not concerned with obeying it as demonstrated throughout the old testament, then he seems to be capable of immorality.

If its a subjective moral code then it will change as the circumstances surrounding it do.

If God is capable of immorality then who is to say any of his moral teachings have any ethical grounds to stand on. If his moral teachings are subjective, then many of them may have no real relevance anymore (hence the current discussion on homosexuality).

If sin is weighted equally as some of you suggest, why is it so common to praise the efforts of soldiers while simulateously pray for the salvation of a gay man?
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Luke
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by Luke »

Not my personal views, but this is related, and worth watching.

Carry on.
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flex wood
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by flex wood »

@ bree and dsh you guys know a large amount of gay guys don't actually do any anal right? And also with that whole line of thinking that anal is unnatural you are only focusing on men when there are women just as gay that want to get married as much as the guys. I find it funny that gay sex conversations always leave out women and only focus on men.
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MrPopo
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by MrPopo »

flex wood wrote:I find it funny that gay sex conversations always leave out women and only focus on men.
It's because girl on girl is hot.
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dsheinem
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by dsheinem »

flex wood wrote:@ bree and dsh you guys know a large amount of gay guys don't actually do any anal right?
Of course, but that's where Breetai went with it so that's where I felt it warranted a reply. I don't know what he'd say about non-anal sex (either hetero or homo), but my point was that one kind of sex is really just as natural/unnatural as any other.
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by DinnerX »

Crabmaster2000 wrote:For arguments sake, say I believe in the Christain God. Why should I take his moral laws regarding any subject as absolute when God doesnt? If "Thou shall not Kill/Murder" is an objective moral law, and God is obviously not concerned with obeying it as demonstrated throughout the old testament, then he seems to be capable of immorality.
Killing is not always murder. I think most would agree there is a distinction. Even if we would disagree on the killing/murder difference in some areas (including this one), I think most of us would at least agree that killing in self-defense would not be murder.

Keep in mind, I believe before I became a Christian and repented, God would've had every right to strike me dead. (my belief, think of it what you will)
Since this signature affects old posts, I'm leaving a message here in case anyone searches for my username. This account died in early 2013. I am no longer a fundamentalist.

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MrPopo
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Re: Homosexuality

Post by MrPopo »

DinnerX wrote:
Crabmaster2000 wrote:For arguments sake, say I believe in the Christain God. Why should I take his moral laws regarding any subject as absolute when God doesnt? If "Thou shall not Kill/Murder" is an objective moral law, and God is obviously not concerned with obeying it as demonstrated throughout the old testament, then he seems to be capable of immorality.
Killing is not always murder. I think most would agree there is a distinction. Even if we would disagree on the killing/murder difference in some areas (including this one), I think most of us would at least agree that killing in self-defense would not be murder.

Keep in mind, I believe before I became a Christian and repented, God would've had every right to strike me dead. (my belief, think of it what you will)
Good article on wiki about the distinctions between murder and killing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_murder
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