Save-States; the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[dunpeal2064]

Here's the thing - and just using your post in this thread and the Eco thread as an example, Doc. You stated Eco wasn't a terrible game...but you also stated you used save states to improve your tactics at multiple points of the game.

This completely changes the experience - if you had to run the whole game from boring intro to stage 4 boss every time, for 20 minutes, you would likely have found it a snoozefest like skate, noise, and I. If I can pick and choose the best / hardest parts to practice, dunno, just doesn't feel right to me.

I was addressing this, as well as addressing the required inps.

I know Mike said it was his personal preference, but Mike is a badass, and I want him to feel better about efficient practice, especially with how huge a contributor he is to the shmup scene here.


I don't think, "You can't chain saves together to make a perfect run" is even the subject at hand. That is obviously cheating.

[noiseredux]

I don't think, "You can't chain saves together to make a perfect run" is even the subject at hand. That is obviously cheating.

I actually read it that way from the OP:

My understanding is a save-state is meant as a way to practice a certain part of a game - after creating a save-state at the stage 4 boss of Eco Fighters; I loaded that save and lo and behold, I had my 2 ships and my score...there was no way to discern this "run" from a legitimate run. Not cool.

^

[dunpeal2064]

Yes, there is no way to discern this... meaning (to me), do we think people are doing this, even though they know its wrong, and should we require inputs to prove otherwise.

Which I answered. If we are going to require replays, it should be of everyone, not just Mame users. 360 players can cheat too, look up the VixyNyan scandel in one of the old Futari threads on shmups for proof. That player used what is basically a "pause on autofire" to slow the game down, and cleared god mode. Replays don't show pauses, so even some of the better players were convinced it was legit. (To Vixy's defense, she didn't know this was not allowed, and has since stopped doing this)

Shmups thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42730

[mjmjr25]

Yus! I love the passion shmups bring out!

So yeah - noise is right. I'm just wanting to make sure that our community knows it is completely uncool to build a run.

I wasn't aware you could cheat yr way to a good run on 360 or other consoles, but I have always said arcade is harder for the simple reason you can't hit a "pause" button, catch yr breath, reposition your hands, etc. Dunno about you guys - but i'm usually tense chest sweaty hands after a good run.

When you, Chaz, explained how save-states were accessed, I was like, "hmm, probably not my thing, but maybe i'll check it out." It isn't something i'd ever use for a game I want to master - I'd want to play it through over and over (which is why I find some games incredibly boring and not creative...metal black / sturmwind / zanac neo). (I know this is opinion, I get that.)

However, what I didn't know, was that when I created a save-state at the 4th boss in Eco, I figured it would save it at a point I could practice that part of the game. I didn't realize it actually saved your entire run, score, ships and all. So this thread if nothing else was to make it crystal clear...DO NOT BUILD RUNS or you'll be put in the burn book AND lose yr shmup card. I realize i'm probably 10 years late to this conversation, but I just caught wind of it, so am talking now...

[dunpeal2064]

I wasn't aware you could cheat yr way to a good run on 360 or other consoles, but I have always said arcade is harder for the simple reason you can't hit a "pause" button, catch yr breath, reposition your hands, etc. Dunno about you guys - but i'm usually tense chest sweaty hands after a good run.

Yeah, I do not think pausing should be allowed as a means to rest. Honestly, if my girl knocks on the door and I am in a good run, I'll pause for 2 seconds to let her in (My crt is very close to my door ), but I'm right back in it, no breaks.

If pausing/cheating is something we are concerned about to the extend of demanding replays, all I ask is that the same expectations are applied to everyone. I don't want anyone using Mame to get the implication that we think they will cheat, but not those using "real hardware" (aka ports that can be cheated on). If we feel we need to protect ourselves from all forms of cheating, then the only way I think is fair is to make everyone record full runs for any scores they wish to submit.

When you, Chaz, explained how save-states were accessed, I was like, "hmm, probably not my thing, but maybe i'll check it out." It isn't something i'd ever use for a game I want to master - I'd want to play it through over and over (which is why I find some games incredibly boring and not creative...metal black / sturmwind / zanac neo). (I know this is opinion, I get that.)

This makes me sad. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, so I won't argue it further, but

However, what I didn't know, was that when I created a save-state at the 4th boss in Eco, I figured it would save it at a point I could practice that part of the game. I didn't realize it actually saved your entire run, score, ships and all. So this thread if nothing else was to make it crystal clear...DO NOT BUILD RUNS or you'll be put in the burn book AND lose yr shmup card. I realize i'm probably 10 years late to this conversation, but I just caught wind of it, so am talking now...

Ha ha, yeah, I assumed this was standard. I mean, you KNOW you are cheating if you do this, its not like remapping buttons or a quick pause where you think, "Hmm, I wonder if that crossed the line into unfair"

Yus! I love the passion shmups bring out!

[noiseredux]

I think Metal Black and Zanac are boring too...

...but I like Sturmwind!

[dunpeal2064]

Metal Black is the coolest boring shmup ever though.

[foxhound1022]

Wow, even when I have to use MAME, I still have no idea how 3/4 of it works. I can get it running, map my controller, and that's about it. I still do full runs simply because that is just part of the game to me.

If you were playing the game at an arcade, you couldn't just choose what level or what spot to start from, so to me it just feels strange. I agree with the opinion that it is a great practicing/learning tool, but just not for me.

I'm no pro or purist by any means, I just wanna play games and have a good time discussing them.

[bryan_65]

This got to 4 pages fast and I have some Captain in me now (pretty buzzed) and don't want to read it all, but I don't even think you should use save states to practice. It is still cheating. If you can't make it to that stage to learn it then just keep playing.

I really don't participate in the score threads, but I think that if you are using save states to practice then maybe you really don't enjoy games enough to PLAY THEM.

[Nyukki]

It never occured to me using save states for practicing certain sections in shmups, I usually use save states in RPGs or Metroid type games when it's time to get off the subway or the baby starts screaming etc.

But with shmups (I play on MAME through my TV), unless I mapped the save state buttons to my joystick, if I want to save state I have to first turn on my wireless keyboard, wait a sec before it kicks in and then hit whatever button needs pressing. No time for all that when in the midst of chaos. Besides, I kinda like going through the entire game over and over, means I get solid at the first stages, and makes things more tense the further I get since I know everything's at stake if I die (serious stuff)!

But then again, perhaps that's why I've never had a high score worthy of submitting...

FYI I voted "No" because at the end of the day these small competitions are just a bit of fun and no prizes. If there are cheaters, then they just have to live with the shame.