Action-Adventure... isn't

[alienjesus]

OK. Why don't you explain which genre Zelda belongs to then if I've got it so wrong, because I was playing it earlier today and I was hacking and slashing my way through enemies whilst crawling through a dungeon, the only way this could be closer to Diablo is if the game had me going into hell and killing the devil.

Calling legend of zelda hack and slash is far more laughable than calling it action adventure. In fact, Action Adventure is probably the ebst possible definition for the series.

I didn;t even choose Zelda because it was a franchise I liked. I just chose it because it's one where its not so easy to categorise as one of the genres you suggested, and one where I think Action Adventure is most appropriate. I'd say the same goes for Beyond Good and Evil too, which has a similar gameplay style to 3D Zelda games, whilst adding in lots of new things of its own - in that case, it's very similar to playing a zelda game, but even less of a hack and slash.

And yet again I'll say that my point was that people are going to disagree about what genre to put games in. I bet lots of people will say that I have it wrong. People will say it's an RPG, or a dungeon crawler, or whatever. It's just futile to get too concerned about what people decide to categorize games under.

[Opa Opa]

I'm being totally serious when I ask this:

What on earth is a 'brawler'? The games under 'brawler' are what I normally consider 'hack-n-slash'.

[Hatta]

Well what makes Diablo 2 an RPG that Zelda lacks? Because they seem pretty similar to me.

Experience points, experience levels, and attributes. That's the common mechanic that runs through every RPG from Ultima to World of Warcraft. This is a necessary condition for a game to be an RPG. It's debatable whether it's a sufficient condition.

[Gamerforlife]

I'm being totally serious when I ask this:

What on earth is a 'brawler'? The games under 'brawler' are what I normally consider 'hack-n-slash'.

To me, brawler is just another name for beat'em up. They both mean a game where you walk around and beat up multiple enemies in hand to hand combat. Now, you can use weapons in some brawlers. However, when you have one where your character always has melee weapons in his hands it becomes a hack n slash. Hack n slash games usually go with medieval, fantasy themes like Golden Axe

Of course, hack n slash really originates with the rpg genre, with games like Diablo I think. It gets used a lot when referring to beat'em ups (or brawlers) that emphasize melee weapons though

[TornadoCreator]

I'm being totally serious when I ask this:

What on earth is a 'brawler'? The games under 'brawler' are what I normally consider 'hack-n-slash'.

To be fair, I've heard them called "Hack n Slash" before as well and it's kind fitting, but I was always used to calling games like Diablo 2, Titan Quests, Champions Return To Arms and erm... well yes. I was always used to calling them "Hack n Slash" as well as "Dungeon Crawlers", the names where always interchangable on the IRC's/forums I used to visit.

The name "Brawler" was actually used on The Escapist by one of the article writers criticising the "Like God of War but..." mentality of people, (and poking fun at Yahtzee), it seemed apt. It's certainly caught on, on their forums anyway where people have adopted the term quite happily.

Honestly, I'd be happy to call God Of War, Devil May Cry and Shinobi etc "Hack n Slash" and Diablo, Titan Quest etc. "Dungeon Crawler" it's all semantics really, the only problem we have is everyone needs to agree because if I say "Hack n Slash" and mean "like Diablo" and you say "Hack n Slash" and mean "like God Of War" we'd wind up having some rather confusing conversations...

[Pichu]

When anyone says "Action-Adventure," I think Zelda and Zelda clones (i.e. Okami, BG&E)

Hack n Slash? I think of Dynasty Warriors.

I've never heard "brawlers." It's always a beat-em-up or Pure Action to me.

So basically, I agree with the guy who said Zelda itself was a genre.

And I think of Adventure as pure puzzle solving with a story line, so that's why I imagine Action-Adventure as a genre.

[TornadoCreator]

Well what makes Diablo 2 an RPG that Zelda lacks? Because they seem pretty similar to me.

Experience points, experience levels, and attributes. That's the common mechanic that runs through every RPG from Ultima to World of Warcraft. This is a necessary condition for a game to be an RPG. It's debatable whether it's a sufficient condition.

OK, I can see your point, but I'd argue that makes Diablo 2 a dungeon crawler with RPG elements and Zelda simply a more streamlined, but less customisable dungeon crawler. I'd certainly claim Zelda and Diablo 2 are far more similar than Diablo 2 and Mass Effect, or Diablo 2 and Final Fantasy VII.

Again, the question is do we consider the "Dungeon Crawler" genre to be an RPG sub-genre or Action sub-genre or somewhere in the middle, but again I can't justify claiming one is different from the other when they literally play the same.

[Gamerforlife]

I'm being totally serious when I ask this:

What on earth is a 'brawler'? The games under 'brawler' are what I normally consider 'hack-n-slash'.

To be fair, I've heard them called "Hack n Slash" before as well and it's kind fitting, but I was always used to calling games like Diablo 2, Titan Quests, Champions Return To Arms and erm... well yes. I was always used to calling them "Hack n Slash" as well as "Dungeon Crawlers", the names where always interchangable on the IRC's/forums I used to visit.

The name "Brawler" was actually used on The Escapist by one of the article writers criticising the "Like God of War but..." mentality of people, (and poking fun at Yahtzee), it seemed apt. It's certainly caught on, on their forums anyway where people have adopted the term quite happily.

Honestly, I'd be happy to call God Of War, Devil May Cry and Shinobi etc "Hack n Slash" and Diablo, Titan Quest etc. "Dungeon Crawler" it's all semantics really, the only problem we have is everyone needs to agree because if I say "Hack n Slash" and mean "like Diablo" and you say "Hack n Slash" and mean "like God Of War" we'd wind up having some rather confusing conversations...

Now see, when I hear "Dungeon Crawler" I think of a game based on gathering lots and lots of items, equipment and various loot. I think you can describe the action as hack n slash, but the overall game itself it a dungeon crawler. This is why I prefer when "hack n slash" is used to refer to beat'em up games, because it's a more pure description since those games, at least in the old days anyway, really are just about hacking and slashing bad guys and pretty much nothing else. There isn't a huge focus on gathering loot in Golden Axe, it's just killing stuff and moving forward

[Jmustang1968]

I'd argue they play quite similar. You have a story driven game with branching conversation teams, and group combat where you control one party member and can switch between them. You can see a natural progression though the genre though Neverwinter Nights, Star Wars: KOTOR etc. but they're still the same genre... it's just a different setting and almost 2 decades of tweeks to the genre which make them seem so different. Like I say, if you make the genres too specific you end up with one genre for every game and the genres become meaningless.

I think Mass Effect and Kotor share a lot more similarities. The combat was much more action oriented. Mass Effect plays like a shooter, but is also an RPG. You have direct actions to button or key presses and uses elements of twitch gameplay. Baldurs Gate is a point and click isometric RPG. Your guys auto attack unless you go through menus and click a spell or ability.

Diablo is an RPG as you level up, select skills and such. Some may say Link gets more powerful with hearts and weapon upgrades, but many shooters have those same aspects. Most modern games blur these lines, but I think it is most correct to classify a game in what its primary focus is.

Diablo is a dungeon crawler RPG as the point is to go into dungeons, kill lots of enemies and collect loot. You may go into dungeons in Zelda, but there is a big exploration and adventure factor in the game. Diablo is town, then levels of dungeon, then next town, and more levels of dungeon. Zelda is not loot driven nor does it have a real level up mechanism. They share some qualities, but there primary purpose and function are a bit different and attract some different types of gamers.

[alienjesus]

Well what makes Diablo 2 an RPG that Zelda lacks? Because they seem pretty similar to me.

Experience points, experience levels, and attributes. That's the common mechanic that runs through every RPG from Ultima to World of Warcraft. This is a necessary condition for a game to be an RPG. It's debatable whether it's a sufficient condition.

OK, I can see your point, but I'd argue that makes Diablo 2 a dungeon crawler with RPG elements and Zelda simply a more streamlined, but less customisable dungeon crawler. I'd certainly claim Zelda and Diablo 2 are far more similar than Diablo 2 and Mass Effect, or Diablo 2 and Final Fantasy VII.

Again, the question is do we consider the "Dungeon Crawler" genre to be an RPG sub-genre or Action sub-genre or somewhere in the middle, but again I can't justify claiming one is different from the other when they literally play the same.

I always considered a dungeon crawler to be something like double dungeons or shining in the darkness. That, or roguelikes such as Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, Shiren the Wanderer and Fatal Labyrinth. I don't really think of a game like diablo as a dungeon crawler at all. My idea of it would definitely be an RPG subgenre.