Should America or Japan feel ashame of the lack of "Jrpg"

[noiseredux]

I'd like to see someone explain how a western RPG's combat system is any less monotonous than a JRPG's when you strip it down to the basics, as everyone likes to do when criticising JRPGs. And as someone mentioned, if you're criticising JRPGs for being the same thing over and over it's pretty hypocritical to not also condemn the military FPS or sports games.

It's all about how gratification is earned. In a JRPG I feel I have to grind for hours to play the game. In a WRPG I just play the damn thing.

I doubt I've ever played a WRPG. What are some examples?

[Inazuma]

I doubt I've ever played a WRPG. What are some examples?

Star Wars KOTOR. I haven't played it myself but I watched a friend play it for maybe 30 mins. I really didn't like it at all.

[Flake]

It's all about how gratification is earned. In a JRPG I feel I have to grind for hours to play the game. In a WRPG I just play the damn thing.

I doubt I've ever played a WRPG. What are some examples?[/quote]

Not grinding. That was the example. In WRPG's there is typically a reduced emphasis on stats and more on choice and action. Which, in my opinion, should necessitate that the typical JRPG not be called a 'role playing game' at all since you are rarely making choices or playing a role.

I think JRPG's should be called 'electronic menu simulators'.

[AppleQueso]

Not that I'm really an expert on Western RPGs, but I know that the best the genre has to offer is on PC.

Fallout 1 and 2
Baldur's Gate
Planescape: Torment
Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines
Neverwinter Nights

Just a few names I see tossed around. I don't really have the patience for RPGs in general these days though so I haven't really played any of them much, if at all.

[Xeogred]

Great, do we really have to go into WRPG's vs JRPG's?

(is Shutdown going to find us AppleQueso?)

I can honestly say I'm not tired of turn based games at all though. Am I alone on that? The other problems are that most JRPG's tend to ditch this tradition for the most part and bring in weirder battle systems that can either be really hit or miss. And I gotta agree with Ack, even if it were the case technically in 16bit JRPG's, I'm so sick and tired of the 14 year old pretty boys, and bad dubbing has been a huge nail in the coffin with this issue. I really want to wonder how much more I could have enjoyed some PS2 JRPG's if they didn't have any voice acting. I can't explain how amazing it is to go back to SNES/PSX JRPG's and just make up voices in my head for the dialogue and not be force fed ear drilling crap.

[noiseredux]

It's all about how gratification is earned. In a JRPG I feel I have to grind for hours to play the game. In a WRPG I just play the damn thing.

I doubt I've ever played a WRPG. What are some examples?

Not grinding. That was the example. In WRPG's there is typically a reduced emphasis on stats and more on choice and action. Which, in my opinion, should necessitate that the typical JRPG not be called a 'role playing game' at all since you are rarely making choices or playing a role.

I think JRPG's should be called 'electronic menu simulators'.[/quote]

fair enough. I still don't think I've played or been interested in playing any WRPG's I can think. I know most JRPG's follow a certain formula, and most have a lot of grinding/menu's but I guess I enjoy them for what they are. BTW the previously mentioned Hyperdimension Neptunia is the most brilliant JRPG in recent years. The story is hilarious, the visuals (if you like anime) are great and there's minimal grinding and no walking around an overworld trying to figure out where to go next. It's all menu-driven lists of locales that you choose and they'll continue the story or present new dungeons. Also, the game itself is so fan-servicey and weird with Sega's involvement as co-developer/horoine, that it pretty much led to me thinking I should finally get a Dreamcast.

[brunoafh]

BTW the previously mentioned Hyperdimension Neptunia is the most brilliant JRPG in recent years.

I dunno about that one man. Sure, the premise is excellent, and the dialogue had me laughing a few times, but the gameplay itself is just... awful. Now I know whether or not it's actually "fun" or not is nothing but opinion, but I think calling it the most brilliant JRPG in years is a bit of a stretch. Writing and story aside, it's just the same old stuff we've always seen.

[noiseredux]

BTW the previously mentioned Hyperdimension Neptunia is the most brilliant JRPG in recent years.

I dunno about that one man. Sure, the premise is excellent, and the dialogue had me laughing a few times, but the gameplay itself is just... awful. Now I know whether or not it's actually "fun" or not is nothing but opinion, but I think calling it the most brilliant JRPG in years is a bit of a stretch. Writing and story aside, it's just the same old stuff we've always seen.

yes -- but it's tongue was so firmly in cheek. I totally admit, this is of course total opinion. I'm just saying, I can't think of any recent RPG that had me so hooked as this one.

[Flake]

Here's the way I see it: The early JRPG's like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were given the menu based gameplay they were because of the limitations of the then available technology. If you've got a desire to play with stats and fart around a medieval setting, they are great choices.

But it's obvious that those games were meant as poor substitutes for traditional pen and paper RPG's.

As technology evolved the game mechanics should have evolved as well. In the West they have - WRPG's still can't recreate the all encompassing freedom of a table top game yet but they are getting closer and closer.

For the most part JRPG's did not evolve to embrace the opportunities that increased technology brought. Oh yeah, the graphics got better. The music became more intricate. But that's just spackle on a busted ass wall. It looks better but you still have the same core problems.

[jfrost]

You know, I used to love JRPG but the truth is...

I don't think they are very good.

In the end, I can't help but notice that the gameplay is reduced to press x, magic on tough enemy, summons on boss. Heal every two turns, use items when needed. It's shallow and we have had the same system forever. There has been no progression since the SNES days for the genre as a whole.

And it would be fine if enemies were interesting but you know they are not. They just take more or less damage or hit a different number of members in your party but that's it. It's not interesting battling against most JRPG monsters because most of the time it's a matter of using the same attack.

Those shallow mechanics are in most games of the genre and that hurts. For every Persona 3 combat system, which isn't that much better, you have a dozen Dragon Quest clones that copy the worst part of the copied worst part of Wizardry which in turn was the worst part of D&D.


I also feel that lvelling up and getting better equipment...is useless. Really, having a sword that does twice the damage your previous one did doesn't have any meaningful gameplay effect because the next enemies just have twice the same HP. You still play the same way, it's redudant, it's padding.

I'm tired of my games being a glorified Skinner Box. Sense of progression is well and all but it must be meaningful.

And my god, do they have padding. I think you can fit any JRPG in a fourth of it's size and retain everything good about it. In the end, Persona 3 FES, which I consider the best JRPG I have ever played, would be dozens of times better if you ignored the boring dungeon and only had the bosses and their own dungeons. More thematic, more interesting, less grinding, overall more fun.

I won't complain about the story because we all know how bad they are. Sometimes they have good writting or good characters but they often get drown into the bad plot and pretentiousness.


In other words. Dragon Quest is bad, stop copying it.

Yet you like Pokémon.