Puppy Mills - is there a line to cross or is it unethical?

[AdamGomez1987]

Again, it really comes down to whether you view dogs as a disposable commodity or valued family members.

I don't view them as either of those things.

There is a middle ground you know.

I'm not getting into the debate on mills or anything, I just hate the reception that I get from dog lovers that if you're not also a dog lover, then clearly you are a dog hater.

I do have a dog, for the record.

Now I just wait for everyone to harass me for having a dog and not thinking of him as "family".

That is called extremism I think The dog you own you love and is clearly your pet, the others it's obvious you're not going to get attached to them, they're meant for other families to bond with otherwise you'll end up like my Grandpa and end up bonding with both of his dogs instead of selling one of them.

[flamepanther]

I'm jumping into this conversation late and I haven't read most of the discussion. However, I think I'm seeing argument over a distinction that veterinarians, breeders, and animal rights activists (sane ones, not just PETA) make that isn't being made very clearly in the last couple of pages:

Professional breeders =\= puppy mills

Puppy mills are the extreme case, where the animal breeding is treated like a mass production manufacturing operation. This very nearly always leads to less attention to proper breeding charts and worse levels of inbreeding. Worse, as with "factory farms," it almost always leads to worse treatment and conditions for the animals, with much higher rates of abuse and death. Some simple analogies:

Farm --> factory farm
Mining --> strip mining
Factory --> sweat shop
Dog breeder --> puppy mill

In other words, the term is reserved for something that's almost universally bad for everyone except the people who profit from it--and that seem to do great business despite near universal hatred for the methods used.

Normal-scale breeders have obvious economic reasons to hate puppy mills, but it also leads to lower quality breeding of "pedigreed" animals--not to mention most breeders got into the business because they are animal lovers, and can't stomach the abuse that goes on. Veterinarians hate them because of the higher rates of health and psychological problems in the animals, and again the all-too-common abuse and neglect. Personally, I don't think there are enough "ethical" puppy mills in the industry to even be worth consideration.


TLDR:
Yes there is a line to cross--but the term "puppy mill" is reserved for those who have already crossed it.

[AdamGomez1987]

Thanks very much for your take, I was very confused at what they were trying to get at the pet shop. I understand more clearly, they were angry at the pet shop for associating themselves with pet mills, which I wonder how they would know such information in the first place unless somebody just leaked the info and just got cheesed off.

All I know is that these group of extremist are trying to close the pet shop in the mall and I am going to stand against it. I don't know how they do business but I do know that whatever animals are brought in, they take care of them and are ethical with their business and do not want to see those people lose their jobs because the employees are ethical in what they do.

[Golgo 14]

While you are in Utah feel free to visit the Best Friends Animal Shelter, the world's largest no-kill animal sanctuary. They'd be happy to see you.

Ooh... I've always wanted to visit that place.

As for the topic, people love to see animals in a pet shop, but the reality behind that situation is pretty fucking bleak. Pet stores shouldn't sell animals and should instead make arrangements with local shelters to have animals brought in to be available for adoption. That way they get the foot traffic and business that the animals bring, while improving the lives of some homeless animals. Selling (and buying) animals only supports a nasty business and creates misery for more animals. Plenty of pet shops do just fine and provide jobs for their employees without selling animals.

[pmainfo]

While purchasing from puppy mills is not illegal, it is highly unethical as we value our companion animals and find it hard to see the difference between a family member and “breeding stock”. The pet store may not be breaking laws but they are working with breeders that are. Some citations listed on their inspection reports are violations to the Animal Welfare Act.

The Family Puppy kennel pictures reveal that the breeding dogs live with excessive feces, are circling with minimal space, and live on painful wire floors. Dried feces indicate the kennels are not cleaned on a daily basis. Some animals live in confinement behind noise barrier fencing with no view, shade or grass to walk on.

Download The Facts Flyer.
http://files.meetup.com/1258100/The%20F ... eet_v3.pdf

The Family Puppy has a history of working with mega mills.

July 2006, Detroit Free Press - John Stottele, the owner of Family of Pets, declined to be interviewed but said in an e-mail that he and his veterinarian have visited Happy Tails and found no problems. “If Happy Tails or any other professional breeder were to have their license suspended or revoked by the USDA, we would no longer purchase puppies from them," Stottele wrote.

The Companion Animal Protection Society investigated Happy Tails Kennel in 2006 revealing horrific conditions. McDuffee’s 500-dog facility, which stirred national controversy, apparently has closed as of March 2010.

Kathy Bauck, from Pick of the Litter, in Minnesota did have her license revoked after being convicted of animal cruelty and torture. Family of Pets bought more than 50 pups in 2005 from Pick of the Litter whose USDA inspection report showed broken, substandard and overcrowded cages; animals exposed to wind and rain; dirty feeding and water bowls, and no proof of veterinary care.

This store will tell you they have standards and are “improving the pet trade” while inspections and photos tell a very different story. Some breeders will not listen to USDA inspectors, why would they “clean-up their act” if a pet store owner requests them too? They have multiple pet stores they can supply.

I have been investigating this store since 2009 and can tell you they are no different than Petland at the Twelve Oaks Mall...they use the same broker! Patrick Fulton.

[pmainfo]

The Michigan Humane Society started their own campaign against puppy selling stores. They are asking the public to pledge not to buy puppies from pet stores. Check out their commercial.

http://www.michiganhumane.org/site/Page ... uppy_mills

[pmainfo]

Thanks very much for your take, I was very confused at what they were trying to get at the pet shop. I understand more clearly, they were angry at the pet shop for associating themselves with pet mills, which I wonder how they would know such information in the first place unless somebody just leaked the info and just got cheesed off.

First, we collect shipping records. Each puppy that they ship into Michigan needs a health certificate which is sent to the MDA. These records are public information. Most of their pups are shippsed inbecause Michigan only has a few commercially licesned breeders who can't keep up with the store's high volume.
http://www.meetup.com/puppymillawarenes ... s/1296832/

From there, you can look up their inspection reports online at the USDA website. http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/efoia/

The violations usually paint a picture of the living conditions. Direct violations involving vet care usually are the most shocking and sad.

We went beyond the records and visited the mills ourselves. The photos are inlcuded in that prior fact sheet. We also collected photos from the local Zoning Department. They screem puppy mill!

Oh, inventory records are also available thru the USDA and Zoning.

The bottom line is...the breeding dogs do not want bigger cleaner cages. They want a family that will give them a name (not a number) and to be free from a cage. We don't want this store to "improve" the pet trade by making commercial mass production better. Puppies simply are not products.

[AdamGomez1987]

Well, I think I learned something this morning. It took me a good day to catch up what was going on to get a solid view and opinion and I've been going to college for 6 years making me completely unaware or just plain dense.

Why I mention my credentials is because I was trying to be aware and broaden my scope which is why I put this board up in the first place so I see a bigger picture which I have.

Based on the information given and the protesters that are standing out in front of the Flint Mall, how many people do you believe are aware of this even when they notice the mob of protesters? Most likely they're going to think the same thing I was thinking, that what they do inside the store is what the protesters are complaining about.

[pmainfo]

Many of the signs do mention puppy mills / bad breeders. It is a lot to convey from signs/banners. Most people do think the store may be abusing their animals. Hopefully, they keep reading the signs and taking literature about the commerical kennels.

http://www.meetup.com/puppymillawarenes ... /#46715381

[lilly]

I'm quite disappointed to realize that there is such a lack of information about what puppymills are. Puppymills are the places of torture and sadness that the pet store buy their cute little pups from. The pups that are lucky enough to get out and be sold at these " wonderful" , "clean", "fun" places are not, by any stretch of the imagination, representative of the breeding dogs left behind! These breeding dogs are used up, made to have litter after litter with no breaks, given no time to be a dog, little to no vet. care, kept in the dark for long periods of time etc... The greed of man continues to amaze me. Google Puppymills, look it up on YouTube and see what the protesters are trying to change!!! Please educate yourself and then make your opinion known afterwards.