What Made you Smile/What Ticked you off Today?

[Forlorn Drifter]

A bit dramatic, no?

I simply made an observation on what others in my area seem to feel. My own feelings which weren't directed at you (How could I know you sport a confederate flag?) are quoted below.

In my eyes it is a sign of ignorance and quite frankly it makes me feel ashamed and not superior.

I'm as entitled to an opinion as you, aren't I? If you want to put that out there and you believe it means something else, go ahead. I can't imagine why it is so important, but that's just me.

Dramatic? Yes. Wrong? I can't really say so.

In your eyes it is a sign of ignorance that makes you feel ashamed... then do you not consider those who use it ignorant and shameful? It wouldn't be a stretch to say so.

[jp1]

A bit dramatic, no?

I simply made an observation on what others in my area seem to feel. My own feelings which weren't directed at you (How could I know you sport a confederate flag?) are quoted below.

In my eyes it is a sign of ignorance and quite frankly it makes me feel ashamed and not superior.

I'm as entitled to an opinion as you, aren't I? If you want to put that out there and you believe it means something else, go ahead. I can't imagine why it is so important, but that's just me.

Dramatic? Yes. Wrong? I can't really say so.

In your eyes it is a sign of ignorance that makes you feel ashamed... then do you not consider those who use it ignorant and shameful? It wouldn't be a stretch to say so.

Sure. But I've got no bone to pick with them over their differing beliefs over what it stands for. It's simply that in my experience it is used as a symbol of hate. I'm not saying that is all it can ever be used to represent, just that is what the people I have encountered use it for.

In that context, it represents ignorance. If it means something else to you, then obviously my views do not apply in your case.

[prfsnl_gmr]

The dirty little secret about this whole flag thing is that it's not about the flag. It's decidedly more political than that. It's about wiping out opposition from what is perceived to be the last conservative stronghold.

You actually remind me very much of one of my very best friends, and it is great discussing these topics with you.

.....

There is, IMO, no conspiracy to destroy conservatives or conservative values. I also do not believe that many southerners vote republican due to racist beliefs (although some undoubtedly do). IMO, the flag is symbol that - regardless of the debate regarding its origins and what it means to some people - was indisputably employed by a regime that attempted to "preserve and expand" the insitution of slavery and, later, by people who resisted - often by employing violence - all attempts at integration. It is still employed for that purpose by some of our society's most hateful members, and there are people alive today (including some of my friends and neighbors) who lived in fear of people acting under that symbol. In sum, I think that - again regardless of the debate regarding its origins, etc.- the confederate flag is a symbol that is very hurtful and insulting to a lot of good people, and I think that such a symbol has no place flying above the state houses in any part of our country.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Sure. But I've got no bone to pick with them over their differing beliefs over what it stands for. It's simply that in my experience it is used as a symbol of hate. I'm not saying that is all it can ever be used to represent, just that is what the people I have encountered use it for.

In that context, it represents ignorance. If it means something else to you, then obviously my views do not apply in your case.

It doesn't matter what it means to me, if nobody else will accept that I see it that way. That's why I refer to suicide- the fact that I own that flag would make some people happy if I committed suicide, and I've been encourage to commit suicide for having it.

I'm not saying you are one of those people, but they exist.

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There is most definitely an attempt to ignore conservative values.

[Sarge]

Appreciate that, I definitely enjoy discussing things here. Folks are a little more chill than a few other boards I visit.

My overall point is that the whole discussion pivoted very, very quickly to the flag, in what is, in the end, absolutely pointless in regards to actually addressing this horrible shooting.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, though. I think it's right there. I've seen political opposition use every means at their disposal to ensure that it continues unopposed. For a little while, in this country, there's been a sort of gentleman's agreement that certain things are off-limits, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Particularly from the more extreme corners of the Democratic Party, there are those that use any tragedy as a way to push their agenda, and the agenda is invariably not really to help things, but to further cement their own power.

Not, of course, that I don't feel like there are some Republicans that are willing to play that game, too. But I see a general unpreparedness for the sorts of attack vectors that come their way, and even if there is preparedness, a general lack of will, or some sense of fairness that only they are honor-bound to abide by. It's actually pretty weird. In a general sense, the Democratic Party has victory in mind, Republicans co-existence, or at least the appearance of principled opposition, with no actual victory involved.

[jp1]

Appreciate that, I definitely enjoy discussing things here. Folks are a little more chill than a few other boards I visit.

My overall point is that the whole discussion pivoted very, very quickly to the flag, in what is, in the end, absolutely pointless in regards to actually addressing this horrible shooting.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, though. I think it's right there. I've seen political opposition use every means at their disposal to ensure that it continues unopposed. For a little while, in this country, there's been a sort of gentleman's agreement that certain things are off-limits, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Particularly from the more extreme corners of the Democratic Party, there are those that use any tragedy as a way to push their agenda, and the agenda is invariably not really to help things, but to further cement their own power.

Not, of course, that I don't feel like there are some Republicans that are willing to play that game, too. But I see a general unpreparedness for the sorts of attack vectors that come their way, and even if there is preparedness, a general lack of will, or some sense of fairness that only they are honor-bound to abide by. It's actually pretty weird. In a general sense, the Democratic Party has victory in mind, Republicans co-existence, or at least the appearance of principled opposition, with no actual victory involved.

That's a rather pointed post Sarge. I don't think it would be well received if it were facing the other direction. I don't want to get into Democrat vs Republican or Conservative vs Liberal, but I think it is safe to say that Republicans and especially Conservatives have had their way for a very long time. It doesn't seem to be working, so perhaps a change is in order. People being happy about that is just the nature of living in what they view as oppression for too long. Progress feels like victory.

[prfsnl_gmr]

It doesn't matter what it means to me, if nobody else will accept that I see it that way.

You are correct. When you display a symbol publicly, it really doesn't matter what the symbol means to you . What matters is what the symbol means to other people. If I walked down the street with a swastika armband because to me - and consistent with the symbol's origins! - the symbol means auspiciousness, I would still probably understand why people might get upset. I would also be a complete fool not to recognize how hurtful a public display of that symbol might be to other people regardless of how I view it.

My overall point is that the whole discussion pivoted very, very quickly to the flag, in what is, in the end, absolutely pointless in regards to actually addressing this horrible shooting.

Agreed. I think that the shooting provided certain politicians the political cover necessary to finally remove the flag, but I think momentum for its removal had been building for some time. (Again, the SC Chamber of Commerce asked Nikki Haley to remove it, and given her successful focus on luring business to the state, she has made clear that she will do pretty much whatever it wants. )

I don't think it's a conspiracy, though. I think it's right there. I've seen political opposition use every means at their disposal to ensure that it continues unopposed.

Don't worry. We liberals see it the same way. (You gerry-mandering, vote suppressing Republicans are always trying to disenfranchise us!!! And, I must admit, you have been quite successful here in North Carolina, where despite an evenly-dvided populace, the Republicans holds a veto-proof majority in our state legislature...and are so conservative that they frequently override the veto of our moderate Republican governor...) I think that what you are describing is a symptom of demographic changes in the United States and the fact that our society is, generally speaking becoming more urban and liberal (but is currently divided about 50/50).

[Luke]

For what it is worth, when I moved from Chicago, and then to Columbus, and then to NC I flipped out a bit. Racism is still rampant here.

I've been called a "Bitch as nigger" by a homeless person in Chicago, btu that person has issues. When I was in high school and all my friends called me a "Nigger lover" for sitting at a table where I was the only white dude...well that's totally different.

Again, this issue isn't about you, it's how black people feel about the flag. This isn't "Black people think Chicken McNuggets look like Africa and reminds them of slavery, so take them off the menu". This is "Our Government should remove something that nearly 100% of African Americans find extremely offensive". Plus, the majority of white people too (guesstimation on that one).

My wife's great great pee-paw or paw-paw or whatever they call it was a confederate soldier and her family hides that shit like Ben Affleck.

If you haven't lived in the South, have not experienced the extreme ongoing racism, I hate to say it but you most likely won't get it. I briefly worked at a place that called their employees "lazy ass niggers" to their faces. That stuff goes on all the time. At another career I was asked to "Not speak to the floor people" because I was an executive.

One more time, this isn't about you.

It's about the people who see oppression and hate when they see that flag. It's a reminder of slavery and the racism that still plagues our society.

......

But okay...Does anyone else not see the business opportunities here? Selling confederate flags at $100 or more a pop on-line could make a lot of money right now. I'm selling them and can't keep them in stock. Just go over to http://www.fuckdemdamnyankeesandgetyousome.com

[Forlorn Drifter]

It doesn't matter what it means to me, if nobody else will accept that I see it that way.

You are correct. When you display a symbol publicly, it really doesn't matter what the symbol means to you . What matters is what the symbol means to other people. If I walked down the street with a swastika armband because to me - and consistent with the symbol's origins! - the symbol means auspiciousness, I would still probably understand why people might get upset. I would also be a complete fool not to recognize how hurtful a public display of that symbol might be to other people regardless of how I view it.

Ah, but there is the problem. What is offensive is decided by those who feel offended. There's nothing wrong with the idea. Its the right idea. But if you don't have a large enough group on your side, it doesn't matter how offensive it is to you, you will be expected to sit there and take it. The swastika and confederate flag are only seen as offensive because enough people feel offended by it. I can say I, truthfully, that I am deeply offended by the Union Jack. But in my life, I doubt it will ever be seen as an offensive symbol. Ever.

[Sarge]

I get really nervous when we get start getting into how people "feel". There are lots of things that I'm offended by, but folks don't bend over backwards to cater to my whims. Make a fact-based case (which they certainly can!), but feelings are driving so much irrationality in this country that it's mind-boggling.

Have I seen racism? Oh, yeah. Definitely. However, from what I've seen, it's exceedingly rare, and getting less so all the time. Maybe it's where I grew up. Maybe it's the people I associate with. Maybe it's my family. I dunno. But the South has made significant strides in race relations. Well, they had, until the race hustlers got involved again. I feel that race relations have been set back at least 30 years, if not more, by the recent spate of events.

For the record, I grew up in the great state of Mississippi. Still live here, still work here. I see people working hand-in-hand, whites and blacks, but all people seem to think about Mississippi to this day is that it was racist and that it's still racist. It's a stigma I don't think will ever pass. Not while people can benefit from it.