Homosexuality

[Flake]

It isn't true for Christians either, as divorce is certainly legal but unbiblical, yet it certainly isn't lobbied against in any way. Hell, there are a whole host of "sins" that don't get the "special treatment" that same-sex marriage does.

At the risk of derailing, can I ask why this is? Why is it that Christians are so obsessed with gay marriage when there are a thousand other things that, as far as I can tell, should be of equal or greater concern?

For example: Sky rocketing divorce rates in the church and tons of kids born out of wedlock. Shouldn't these be more important?

[DinnerX]

People will sick up for their particular secular beliefs and try to put them into the government...I view myself as simply doing what everyone others do when I try to ensure government policies agree with my beliefs or, at least, aren't contrary to them.

I feel like I need to clarify this. Not everyone cares about such things. I didn't literally mean everyone.

This isn't always true. For example, I believe that churches should be taxed and that people should be forced to demonstrate a basic understanding of current events before being allowed to vote, but I would never actively pursue either (through vote, lobbying, etc.) since those principles aren't consistent with greater principles of fairness, equity, separation of church and state, etc.

So you believe the government should tax churches and require people demonstrate a basic understanding of current events to vote, but another belief overrides that, yes? I sometimes find myself in situations like that too. I end up standing for what ever comes out on top in my belief hierarchy. The losing belief is dismissed you might say. I don't view that as a problem.

It isn't true for Christians either, as divorce is certainly legal but unbiblical, yet it certainly isn't lobbied against in any way. Hell, there are a whole host of "sins" that don't get the "special treatment" that same-sex marriage does.

Maybe it's because the sames-sex marriage is currently in the limelight? Maybe they think the other issues are lost causes...somehow? I don't know.

[optmusprimenumber]

(i moved this from the tail of my last post, i'd like this to be further up the stream so to speak)

upon further thought, i wish to say that i'm not suggesting that because there are bad priests the bible is inherently wrong, just that there are bad priests so is the bible necessarily right? and even further, is it right in deciding who's love is holy and who's isn't? on that note i'd like to make a clear distinction between love and lust (towards whomever).

and aren't it religious folk who are standing between many gay couples and their marriage?

right now, if you are bible-religious and aren't readily dismissing my comments, you're probably thinking that the devil must be in my head somewhere, pulling the strings to make me think and type these things, to test your faith, and to you i am an outnumbered mortal who has chosen or been manipulated to wage war against the bible. tho i assure you, i am devil-free, and i'm not against the bible per se, i'm just against its ability to convince people that they are right in judging others who choose and/or find happiness in things that the devout would never be "guilty" of. and that pretty much goes full circle all the way back to my first comment. i'm not here to start shit, this discussion raises many interesting questions for me, because of my beliefs and because i feel that no one should be able to find a case against someone's true happiness, anywhere. sorry if it got a bit ugly, i didn't mean it that way, if we were all in the same room having this discussion the old fashioned way you more than likely would not feel i was just here to flame about religion, but rather pick your brains on the matter, same as everyone else.

edit* (i've been perusing the earlier pages of this thread..) And a few things that i almost said but ultimately thought rang too much of "your religion is wrong" and thus omitted were said in other words by others who didn't get pulled aside for being "inflammatory" ...jeez luise

[o.pwuaioc]

Maybe it's because the sames-sex marriage is currently in the limelight? Maybe they think the other issues are lost causes...somehow? I don't know.

I'd be more inclined to believe it wasn't pure bigotry except that so many among the anti-gay marriage crowd also get divorce, or in Rush Limbaugh's case, several divorces. I don't think it's necessary to quote those special quotes of Jesus which explicitly condemn hypocrisy (and yet is completely silent about homosexuality...).

[DinnerX]

Maybe it's because the sames-sex marriage is currently in the limelight? Maybe they think the other issues are lost causes...somehow? I don't know.

I'd be more inclined to believe it wasn't pure bigotry except that so many among the anti-gay marriage crowd also get divorce, or in Rush Limbaugh's case, several divorces. I don't think it's necessary to quote those special quotes of Jesus which explicitly condemn hypocrisy (and yet is completely silent about homosexuality...).

And there's the largest problem with the Church itself today. Not much internal policing, which leads to hypocrisy, which goes a long way toward discrediting anything the Church says.

[sabrage]

(i moved this from the tail of my last post, i'd like this to be further up the stream so to speak)

upon further thought, i wish to say that i'm not suggesting that because there are bad priests the bible is inherently wrong, just that there are bad priests so is the bible necessarily right? and even further, is it right in deciding who's love is holy and who's isn't? on that note i'd like to make a clear distinction between love and lust (towards whomever).

and aren't it religious folk who are standing between many gay couples and their marriage?

right now, if you are bible-religious and aren't readily dismissing my comments, you're probably thinking that the devil must be in my head somewhere, pulling the strings to make me think and type these things, to test your faith, and to you i am an outnumbered mortal who has chosen or been manipulated to wage war against the bible. tho i assure you, i am devil-free, and i'm not against the bible per se, i'm just against its ability to convince people that they are right in judging others who choose and/or find happiness in things that the devout would never be "guilty" of. and that pretty much goes full circle all the way back to my first comment. i'm not here to start shit, this discussion raises many interesting questions for me, because of my beliefs and because i feel that no one should be able to find a case against someone's true happiness, anywhere. sorry if it got a bit ugly, i didn't mean it that way, if we were all in the same room having this discussion the old fashioned way you more than likely would not feel i was just here to flame about religion, but rather pick your brains on the matter, same as everyone else.

edit* (i've been perusing the earlier pages of this thread..) And a few things that i almost said but ultimately thought rang too much of "your religion is wrong" and thus omitted were said in other words by others who didn't get pulled aside for being "inflammatory" ...jeez luise

I asked much the same question a few pages back, but I think I phrased it in a confusing or misleading way. I'd like to know the same thing: on par, why choose one belief system (in this specific case, Christianity) over another? Is it a nature vs nurture thing?

I'm glad that you came around, optimus. I hope that you can recognize the difference between your previous tone and the tone that had previously guided the thread, especially given that you outright admitted that you hadn't read any of it. If I came off as harsh, it was merely to facilitate further intellectual discussion - or, failing that, a graceful end to this topic.

[optmusprimenumber]

(i moved this from the tail of my last post, i'd like this to be further up the stream so to speak)

upon further thought, i wish to say that i'm not suggesting that because there are bad priests the bible is inherently wrong, just that there are bad priests so is the bible necessarily right? and even further, is it right in deciding who's love is holy and who's isn't? on that note i'd like to make a clear distinction between love and lust (towards whomever).

and aren't it religious folk who are standing between many gay couples and their marriage?

right now, if you are bible-religious and aren't readily dismissing my comments, you're probably thinking that the devil must be in my head somewhere, pulling the strings to make me think and type these things, to test your faith, and to you i am an outnumbered mortal who has chosen or been manipulated to wage war against the bible. tho i assure you, i am devil-free, and i'm not against the bible per se, i'm just against its ability to convince people that they are right in judging others who choose and/or find happiness in things that the devout would never be "guilty" of. and that pretty much goes full circle all the way back to my first comment. i'm not here to start shit, this discussion raises many interesting questions for me, because of my beliefs and because i feel that no one should be able to find a case against someone's true happiness, anywhere. sorry if it got a bit ugly, i didn't mean it that way, if we were all in the same room having this discussion the old fashioned way you more than likely would not feel i was just here to flame about religion, but rather pick your brains on the matter, same as everyone else.

edit* (i've been perusing the earlier pages of this thread..) And a few things that i almost said but ultimately thought rang too much of "your religion is wrong" and thus omitted were said in other words by others who didn't get pulled aside for being "inflammatory" ...jeez luise

I asked much the same question a few pages back, but I think I phrased it in a confusing or misleading way. I'd like to know the same thing: on par, why choose one belief system (in this specific case, Christianity) over another? Is it a nature vs nurture thing?

I'm glad that you came around, optimus. I hope that you can recognize the difference between your previous tone and the tone that had previously guided the thread, especially given that you outright admitted that you hadn't read any of it. If I came off as harsh, it was merely to facilitate further intellectual discussion - or, failing that, a graceful end to this topic.

like i said, i never meant to offend.. but some things truly bother the crap out of me and i can be excitable.. sharing my thoughts and opinions in a thread about sharing thoughts and opinions and getting lynched for it has a way of affecting the brain's chemical output and can put someone a bit on edge. but i seriously didn't end up saying a lot of things that i thought were offensive, i made every attempt to be civil yet unrestricted in my statements and inquiries to people whom i rarely find myself in a discussion with discussing things i rarely get to discuss. most of the time this conversation goes "yea i don't care if people are gay" "yea me neither" "beer?". And so when everyone is all worked up and firing on all cylinders banging out the sharpest of their points, and arguing with their reasons, i do as the romans and get my feet wet too. and if i'm wearing sneakers, which i was, i end up walking around in squishy shoes. but my full intent was to indulge this thread, not hijack it, there's nothing positive to be gained by trolling a cool forum.

[Johnodog]

I notice on these threads that the non religious think they understand the religious peoples motives...and that motive is pure hate...This view is simplistic at best and purposefully mean at worse. Also, Christians are always attacked as if they are they only group whose religion disavows the gay lifestyle. Muslims KILL homosexuals in countries such as Iran, and Syria. The Jewish religion does not agree with the gay lifestyle either. The ironic thing is that most all religions are in conflict with the gay life but gays only attack Christians. Now personally I think the problem is that it is as hard to reject ones faith as it is to reject ones homosexuality. Both sides should try to bridge the ignorance gap..but there is too much self righteous hate ON BOTH SIDES. My own opinion is supportive to most gay issues including military service, marriage and adoption. I come to my opinion through old school conservatism, which says...Live and let live. Gay people can't help who they are and shouldn't be forced to justify themselves. Also, Christians have a right to practice their religion and shouldn't be forced to justify themselves either. Live and let live.

[mjmjr25]

At the risk of derailing, can I ask why this is? Why is it that Christians are so obsessed with gay marriage when there are a thousand other things that, as far as I can tell, should be of equal or greater concern?

For example: Sky rocketing divorce rates in the church and tons of kids born out of wedlock. Shouldn't these be more important?

The obsession you refer to is not that of Christians, or the Christian faith, I assure you. It is that of the uninformed and cable news wonks.

That view is really far off, at a minimum a misperception.

The churches I attend spend a great deal more time discussing divorce and how it is displeasing to God. I would say conservatively that: I’ve spent, my church has spent, and my extended families churches (Longview, WA, - Chicago, IL – Modesto, CA, Fort Meyers, FL) have spent considerable more time on the issue of divorce, literally in the 99-to-1 range of discussing heterosexual divorce as opposed to gay marriage.

The thought that Christians are so adamant and occupied with the homesexual marriage debate is, honestly, laughable. It is the same idea as before. If the topic were, “Should divorce be illegal.” I would say, “I’m not concerned with legality or illegality as it pertains to this realm. However, if you and ask if I support divorce being legal, I would say “no”.” For the exact reason as before – why would anyone of Christian faith actively state they support something they know to be displeasing to God.

In my 34 years of attending sermons, not one sermon has focused on homosexual marriages. Many, at least dozens, possibly near a hundred have focused on divorce and how it is the breaking of a committed relationship between a couple and God.

Additionally, most churches will require a couple to go through lengthy courses explaining what the relationship you are entering into means - if you both parties do not have an understanding of the commitment, the church likely will not marry them.

Also, most churches, the churches I’ve belonged to, the churches my extended family and friends belong to, have support networks with men and women dedicated to counseling couples before and during marriage. My mother has counseled literally hundreds of men and women in troubled marriages - she has counseled folks with homosexual concerns twice. (I asked her this morning)

The Christian theology does not view marriage from a “tax credit or married rights perspective” as much of the populace likely does.

I assure you, divorce and children out of wedlock are as displeasing to God as homosexual acts. It just isn’t as fun to report on the news, apparently.

[dsheinem]

I assure you, divorce and children out of wedlock are as displeasing to God as homosexual acts. It just isn’t as fun to report on the news, apparently.

You are missing the point. Of course both are equally displeasing to the church, but the church is not making concerted political efforts to make divorce, illegitimate children, etc. illegal under secular law. They are doing this with same-sex marriage. It was never a debate about what they focus on in the pulpit, it was about how their disapproval gets voiced. For same-sex marriage, that disapproval is VERY public and carries legislative entailments.

Also, does your mom do what is sometimes referred to as "pray away the gay" type of counseling? The same kind of thing fellow-Minesotean Michelle Bachman's husband does?