World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[ZeroAX]

Dave it's really disappointed to see you being so fanatical.

As I have stated many times I believe muslims themselves are not any more or less likely to be criminals/rapists at birth than any other people.

But can you honestly say with a straight face that islam is not an ideology that promotes the bad treatment of women? And have you actually talked to any muslim women about this? I used to be more indifferent to this subject till I dated an (ex) muslim girl.

Are you honestly going to debate that having such an ideology being promoted by one's family does not twist the mind of dissillusioned young men?

I will forever think that letting in Syrian refugees is the right thing to do. But we need to educate them and we need to use education to fight any fanatical/sexist ideologies, either they be fascism, islam, radical christianity (it's pretty much exctinct in Europe, though I know it exists in the US) or anyhting else.

[Erik_Twice]

Didn't we see the same thing in the US with crime with immigrant communities across our history?

I would be extremely wary of making comparisons with the United States. The demographics, history and sociocultural factors couldn't be more different and the kind of inmigration even more so.

For example, the Wikipedia page nullpointer listed says "The Handbook of Crime Correlates states that unlike studies outside the US, a majority of studies in the US have found lower crime rates among immigrants than among non-immigrants. Again, the country of origin may be more important than immigrant status itself".

I can't stress how important the bolded is.

Between you and me, I think most Americans inmediately think of Afro Americans when they hear about this stuff and apply the same logic to it. And I think this makes discussions on the issue very difficult because the groups are not similar at all.

[dsheinem]

Dave it's really disappointed to see you being so fanatical.

As I have stated many times I believe muslims themselves are not any more or less likely to be criminals/rapists at birth than any other people.

But can you honestly say with a straight face that islam is not an ideology that promotes the bad treatment of women? And have you actually talked to any muslim women about this? I used to be more indifferent to this subject till I dated an (ex) muslim girl.

Are you honestly going to debate that having such an ideology being promoted by one's family does not twist the mind of dissillusioned young men?

I never said any of these things, not sure how you are reading these ideas into my comment.

That said, I think there are examples of Muslims who are respectful of women as equals and examples of Muslims who aren't - the same is true with Christians, Hindus, Atheists, etc. It isn't fair to blame a religious tradition as such for the behavior of its followers - they should be held, rather, to a much higher standard.

In most of human history the role of religion generally and of scripture specifically has been to function primarily as a set of malleable ideas and relatable stories that can be fashioned into the "TRUE AND DIVINE BASIS" for almost any kind of ideology that anyone seeking power wants to promote.

[Erik_Twice]

That said, I think there are examples of Muslims who are respectful of women as equals and examples of Muslims who aren't - the same is true with Christians, Hindus, Atheists, etc. It isn't fair to blame a religious tradition as such for the behavior of its followers - they should be held, rather, to a much higher standard.

What is unfair is to absolve Islam from the sexism it actively promotes on its followers. It's an ideology in which God mandates that men should be the protectors of women, that their word is worth half of that of a man, that a good woman is "devoutly obedient", to his husband that they should cover themselves so as to not "tempt men" and that those men not only can but that they should punish their wives, physically for moral wrongdoings.

Islam promotes the oppresion of women and it promotes it to a degree that many other groups or ideologies you despise couldn't even think of. You have lambasted Republicans, Gamergate or Men Right's Activists for much less. Hell, you have lambasted me and ZeroAX and Exhuminator for less . So I think you are doing yourself a massive disservice by not being upfront and admitting that yes, Islam is deeply misogynistic.

EDIT: I also don't think you should brush ZeroAX's question about knowing any muslim or ex-muslim women on a personal level. I really don't think it's possible to realize how poisonous it is as an ideology and how these "follower/ideology" distinctions are of no use to the women living under their grip until you see it beforehand.

[MrPopo]

What is unfair is to absolve Islam from the sexism it actively promotes on its followers. It's an ideology in which God mandates that men should be the protectors of women, that their word is worth half of that of a man, that a good woman is "devoutly obedient", to his husband that they should cover themselves so as to not "tempt men" and that those men not only can but that they should punish their wives, physically for moral wrongdoings.

You think the Bible doesn't have the same patriarchal slant to it? It's just fallen out of vogue in modern Christianity.

[BoringSupreez]

Didn't we see the same thing in the US with crime with immigrant communities across our history?

I would be extremely wary of making comparisons with the United States. The demographics, history and sociocultural factors couldn't be more different and the kind of inmigration even more so.

For example, the Wikipedia page nullpointer listed says "The Handbook of Crime Correlates states that unlike studies outside the US, a majority of studies in the US have found lower crime rates among immigrants than among non-immigrants. Again, the country of origin may be more important than immigrant status itself".

I can't stress how important the bolded is.

Between you and me, I think most Americans inmediately think of Afro Americans when they hear about this stuff and apply the same logic to it. And I think this makes discussions on the issue very difficult because the groups are not similar at all.

The nation of origin is very much important, and is why I think many Americans have such a slanted view of how things are in Europe. The US was built on European immigration from the 1600s through the 1910s, yes, but Europe is far, far more similar culturally to the US than the Western European nations are to the Middle East. US culture is actually just a mixture of different Western European cultures, primarily German and British. So yeah, I agree with you here.

What is unfair is to absolve Islam from the sexism it actively promotes on its followers. It's an ideology in which God mandates that men should be the protectors of women, that their word is worth half of that of a man, that a good woman is "devoutly obedient", to his husband that they should cover themselves so as to not "tempt men" and that those men not only can but that they should punish their wives, physically for moral wrongdoings.

You think the Bible doesn't have the same patriarchal slant to it? It's just fallen out of vogue in modern Christianity.

Are we talking about 2016, or 1850? Western Europe has barely any practicing Christians these days.

That said, I think there are examples of Muslims who are respectful of women as equals and examples of Muslims who aren't - the same is true with Christians, Hindus, Atheists, etc. It isn't fair to blame a religious tradition as such for the behavior of its followers - they should be held, rather, to a much higher standard.

What is unfair is to absolve Islam from the sexism it actively promotes on its followers. It's an ideology in which God mandates that men should be the protectors of women, that their word is worth half of that of a man, that a good woman is "devoutly obedient", to his husband that they should cover themselves so as to not "tempt men" and that those men not only can but that they should punish their wives, physically for moral wrongdoings.

Islam promotes the oppresion of women and it promotes it to a degree that many other groups or ideologies you despise couldn't even think of. You have lambasted Republicans, Gamergate or Men Right's Activists for much less. Hell, you have lambasted me and ZeroAX and Exhuminator for less . So I think you are doing yourself a massive disservice by not being upfront and admitting that yes, Islam is deeply misogynistic.

EDIT: I also don't think you should brush ZeroAX's question about knowing any muslim or ex-muslim women on a personal level. I really don't think it's possible to realize how poisonous it is as an ideology and how these "follower/ideology" distinctions are of no use to the women living under their grip until you see it beforehand.

Speaking of Gamergate, I do in fact remember dsh defending Anita Sarkeesian and stating that he reads Kotaku. Strange how those incredibly dubious sources are worth paying attention when it comes to the topic sexism in video games, but mutliple reports in multiple respected national newspapers from multiple nations on the topic of Muslim assaults aren't a reliable indication of anything.

[dsheinem]

Jesus FUCKING Christ people!

Things I said:
-Islam itself does not necessarily need to be taught/practiced in a manner that is hateful. No religion does, but all of them have been/often are.
-The people who carried out the attacks may not have been refugees, we just don't know yet.
-"Look, the whole thing is horrible, obviously. I don't mean to diminish it."

and, on a somehow(?) now-related note, I need to point out I've also said

-Anita's "opinions should be subject to reasonable discussion and debate, but her person should expect to be free of threat."

Things I have not said:
-"Even if the attackers were Muslim, their religion certainly didn't shape their actions. Islam is awesome!"
-"The attackers were not refugees. It couldn't be!"
-"Meh. What's a little sexual assault on a holiday?"

or

-"Anita's videos are awesome and her critiques are all spot on and well-crafted, just like Kotaku's news!"


So piss off with putting false statements in my mouth...

[BoringSupreez]

Things I said:
-Islam itself does not necessarily need to be taught/practiced in a manner that is hateful. No religion does, but all of them have been/often are.

And Islam, specifically, is the worst offender right now. The fact that Christianity or Buddhism has been practiced badly in the past is irrelevant when they're not the current issue, and it doesn't excuse Islam. Plus, I believe that Islam has the worst track record overall, going throughout history. Not all religions are equal.

-The people who carried out the attacks may not have been refugees, we just don't know yet.

We do now. From the German news site Express, translated through Google:

These nationalities of the suspects

Among the 31 known suspects of the remaining offenses were nine Algerian, Moroccan eight, five Iranian, four Syrian, an Iraqi, a Serbian, an American and two German nationals. 18 of them were asylum seekers.

18 out of the 31 are refugees. That's over 50%.

This was found on one of the suspects by the police: A list of German phrases the rapists were using (as a guide), including such phrases as "big boobs", "I want to fuck you", and "I kill you".

german phrases.jpg (40.76 KiB) Viewed 730 times

[dsheinem]

Things I said:
-Islam itself does not necessarily need to be taught/practiced in a manner that is hateful. No religion does, but all of them have been/often are.

And Islam, specifically, is the worst offender right now. The fact that Christianity or Buddhism has been practiced badly in the past is irrelevant when they're not the current issue, and it doesn't excuse Islam. Plus, I believe that Islam has the worst track record overall, going throughout history. Not all religions are equal.

I wouldn't really disagree with any of that, except to say that I believe it is important to emphasize that no amount of historically/equally bad religious practices excuses the version of Islam that is being practiced/taught today in a lot of countries with ongoing wars (and refugees). I think the emphasis is important, as it guards against assuming that someone who is Muslim is also necessarily a misogynist, a threat, an enemy, etc. because of their religion.

We do now. From the German news site Express, translated through Google:

These nationalities of the suspects

Among the 31 known suspects of the remaining offenses were nine Algerian, Moroccan eight, five Iranian, four Syrian, an Iraqi, a Serbian, an American and two German nationals. 18 of them were asylum seekers.

18 out of the 31 are refugees. That's over 50%.

This was found on one of the suspects by the police: A list of German phrases the rapists were using (as a guide), including such phrases as "big boobs", "I want to fuck you", and "I kill you".

german phrases.jpg

This article is largely full of hearsay from sources that don't want to be named, and it is coming from a tabloid news source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... in_Germany) that has its own commercial reasons for wanting to stir up controversy and sensationalism.

[Erik_Twice]

You think the Bible doesn't have the same patriarchal slant to it? It's just fallen out of vogue in modern Christianity.

That's a whataboutism. I have never mentioned Christianity nor the Bible and I have absolutely no problem in calling it or any other ideology for its shit.

Islam itself does not necessarily need to be taught/practiced in a manner that is hateful. No religion does, but all of them have been/often are.

But the only possible way Islam can be taught without its huge sexist streak is by ignoring if not outright contradicting the words of its prophet on women.

And it's not even a defense. I'm sure the Republican Party does not "necessarily need" to oppose gay rights, abortion but you do not defend it the way you do with Islam. I really think you are doing women a massive, brutal disservice by treating Islam with kid's gloves. You give it a benefit of the doubt it doesn't deserve.


PD: Let's not bring Sarkeesian or Kotaku on this, please