Racketboy forums’ Summer Games Challenge 2019

[pierrot]

@pierot: yeah, I think I mean Hades as the cave level, the annoying level where the walls randomnly move every which way and if your not in the right spot you die instantly.

Yeah, that stage you just have to memorize. There's no way to twitch your way out of it. It is frustrating at first, but it feels kind of good to get through it without dying, once you know it.

I also think you hit on another sore spot for me...every place I read about the game talks about how easy it is and I just don't see it. I am not a master of schmups but I'm decent at them and this "easy" game keeps killing me which makes me feel inept and angry. I think if I didn't go in with that expectation it may not frustrate me as much as it does.

Oh, I totally get this. It was something I struggled with at first, too, for pretty much the same reasons. It's like a meme, too. I don't know where the idea that it's an easy game comes from, but I suspect it's mostly people who don't really think about how many ships they lose, or how many continues they use, and the instant respawn kind of facilitates that. TechnoSoft made it to kick your ass at first. That's what they do. Blast Wind is probably the only legitimately "easy" TechnoSoft game I've played, but even that takes some amount of practice, without just credit feeding to victory.

Also, Key is a god gamer who eats Comix Zone, and craps Wiz & Liz. Don't feel too bad if she has little trouble with a game that's difficult for you.

[pook99]

@key: absolutely no need to apologize, I always appreciate recommendations, but gaming is always a bit subjective. Also, your opinion is the majority one, most people enjoy thunderforce 3 and it is considered easy.

I always find when it comes to classic gaming easy is usually synonymous with the games you spent the most time with as a kid, some games that I conisder easy are Contra, Super C, ninja gaiden 1 and 2, Mike tysons punch out, life force, and ghosts n goblins. None of those games are easy by any objective measure but I have poured so many hours into them that they are ingrained in my head and I could beat them pretty effortlessly, I suspect you had the same experience with thunderforce 3.

@pierot: right, I think thats a big point of contention, I don't mind hard shmups that rely on twitch reflexes, but I get agitated when there is absolutely no way I could have foreseen a death until it is too late. I may give it one more go and just start with the Hades level and work on memorizing it, the other levels I played were tough but I didn't feel cheated by them.

I also recognize how much of a hypocrite I'm being, right now I'm crying about having to memorize the cave level, but a few posts ago in a different thread I gush about how wii punch out is one of my all time favorite games and the entire title defense mode is dying until you memorize the enemy patterns.

[Key-Glyph]

I also recognize how much of a hypocrite I'm being, right now I'm crying about having to memorize the cave level, but a few posts ago in a different thread I gush about how wii punch out is one of my all time favorite games and the entire title defense mode is dying until you memorize the enemy patterns.

Haha, yes! This! This right here is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm all like, "Yeah, Ecco's not that hard after you practice a bit," and then in the next breath I'm like, "THE ORIGINAL SUPER MARIO BROS. IS NOT FUN HOW WAS ANYONE SUPPOSED TO FIGURE OUT THE SECRET PATHS IN THE CASTLES."

What's really going on here is just that I loved the setting and story of Ecco enough to endure lame, punishing deaths a million times, and for whatever reason I am just not invested in Mario 1 and thus have zero patience with it, even though it's incredibly more fair. I guess everyone's tolerance bar gets set differently for every game, based at least in part on factors that don't even involve the gameplay -- and this tolerance bar often dictates how far we get. It's not hypocrisy so much as blatant bias.

[Key-Glyph]

Double-post to say that I've officially started dreaming about Lemmings.

This happens to me with every puzzle game I play. Puyo Puyo, the Witness, Portal... I eventually start playing levels in my dreams.

This is actually a bit stressful, because I just bumped up into the MAYHEM difficulty bracket in Lemmings, and every one of these levels requires so much more brainpower and time. I feel that in the TAXING difficulty, more often than not you got a sense of how to approach a puzzle by looking at it. You felt like you had "leads," or something to go on. MAYHEM, on the other hand... I spent maybe thirty full minutes trying to figure out how the very first stage was even possible (and this time it wasn't because I didn't see something on the screen!). We're talking the kinds of puzzles where you just stare, and stare, and stare, and feel the smoke start to come out of your ears.

It's pretty awesome. But it's also exhausting. So when I sleep, I'd rather not go right back into wearing my brain down with puzzles.

It makes me really worried about the next bracket, though. Each difficulty setting has 30 levels; I have 25 left to go in MAYHEM, but then the final stretch to the finish will be 30 levels of SUNSOFT difficulty. I can't even imagine what those are like. I'm trying to keep my confidence and believe that I'll really finish this game this year, but... Lemmings is psyching me out, man!

[marurun]

OMG, I used to dream Lemmings... I would have insomnia and wouldn't be able to get this image of shadowed lemmings doing their hair-tossing march over low, blue hills out of my head.

[pook99]

I also recognize how much of a hypocrite I'm being, right now I'm crying about having to memorize the cave level, but a few posts ago in a different thread I gush about how wii punch out is one of my all time favorite games and the entire title defense mode is dying until you memorize the enemy patterns.

Haha, yes! This! This right here is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm all like, "Yeah, Ecco's not that hard after you practice a bit," and then in the next breath I'm like, "THE ORIGINAL SUPER MARIO BROS. IS NOT FUN HOW WAS ANYONE SUPPOSED TO FIGURE OUT THE SECRET PATHS IN THE CASTLES."

What's really going on here is just that I loved the setting and story of Ecco enough to endure lame, punishing deaths a million times, and for whatever reason I am just not invested in Mario 1 and thus have zero patience with it, even though it's incredibly more fair. I guess everyone's tolerance bar gets set differently for every game, based at least in part on factors that don't even involve the gameplay -- and this tolerance bar often dictates how far we get. It's not hypocrisy so much as blatant bias.

I think you hit the nail on the head, it is infinitely satisfying to punch people in the face while playing punch out and for whatever reason I just don't get the same level of satisfaction from memorizing the levels in thunderforce 3. I also think the entire internet would agree that thunderforce 3 is easier than wii punch out but I just lack the dedication to play it as opposed to punch out which I absoluetly adore.

Also, I agree with you on the original super mario bros, while I recognize the games importance in video game history, I don't love it as a game, and think the entire concept of the "secret paths" in the castle is totally ridiculous.

[Key-Glyph]

I have cleared Lemmings' Mayhem difficulty. T___T

Oh my GOD, that batch's last level! It was just... I spent at least two hours on it, possibly more. It was one of those setups where you have seemingly too few jobs to assign to your Lemmings to see them through, so you have to get weird about how you use their skills and you bake your noodle on how to consolidate steps to conserve what you've got.

My main complaint resurfaced again with this level, unfortunately -- that a lot of Lemmings' difficulty rests on landscape quirks that are not necessarily obvious. In the last level, there was a feature that a Lemming would interact with in a very peculiar way that I had no way to anticipate, and it required absolute pixel-perfect execution to achieve. So, you spend a lot of time wondering if you're doing something wrong, or should be going about things a different way, because you have absolutely no way of knowing what's required of you unless you hit upon it by accident. I was working this level with the proper steps and failing for at least 45 minutes before I happened to place a Lemming on the secret perfect pixel. Know what I mean?

So here's my conundrum for any of you who might know Lemmings better than I do. After you clear a difficulty, the game tells you which mode comes next. I have two left to do, and the next mode the game officially introduced after "Mayhem" is "Present" -- but the manual suggests that "Present" is an optional tier. It's not even listed in their official difficulty spread. The "Sunsoft" difficulty, which is the other batch I haven't done, is definitely referred to as the final stretch.

The question is, should I skip forward to Sunsoft difficulty, and then circle back to Present as a victory lap, or for a rainy day when I just have to have more Lemmings levels? That's what I'm leaning towards. I'll consider the game completed when I finish all the levels, but for now I'm kind of just gunning for closure.

[marurun]

I don't know a lot about the console versions of Lemmings, but I did a quick check on-line...

SUNSOFT is an additional difficulty setting available exclusively on the Genesis/Megadrive port of Lemmings, made by and named after the developer of the Genesis port. It features 30 levels, one of which was ported from Oh No! More Lemmings and converted into the original game's tileset (Exodus!). These levels are known for being notoriously hard, even more so than Mayhem. It is the last official difficulty in the game

https://lemmings.fandom.com/wiki/SUNSOFT

Present is an additional difficulty setting available exclusively on the Genesis/Megadrive port of Lemmings. It features 30 levels, many of which uses the same maps as the Genesis-exclusive levels. These levels differ very wildly in difficulty, ranging from very easy to very hard -- it's more akin to a bonus difficulty than an actual one. The Present levels are unique in the fact that *REDACTED SO AS NOT TO SPOIL* It is followed by the last official difficulty of any lemmings port, SUNSOFT.

https://lemmings.fandom.com/wiki/Present

[BoneSnapDeez]

I have cleared Lemmings' Mayhem difficulty. T___T

Nice work.

I also found some of the later stages really hard in an aggravating way. I think the game was a little long overall, and I didn't care for the levels that repeat scenery from earlier, just with fewer available jobs to assign the lemmings.

That Sunsoft difficulty makes me glad I don't have the console ports.

My favorite thing about the Genesis version:

[Key-Glyph]

Thanks for the input, Maru and Bone. And thanks for redacting information, Maru -- that's exactly why I was afraid to look anything up about the difficulties! (I also love that you would dream of the Lemmings' tousle-haired silhouettes. Those sprites have sooooo much personality.)

I think I am going to tackle Sunsoft difficulty next, consider the game beaten when I'm through, and then return to the game in the future to polish off Present difficulty for completion's sake. I kind of like the idea that maybe I'll pick away at the Present levels slowly over time, just a few here and there every year, when the desire strikes. Lemmings has been a big influence on me for so long, and stretching it out into the future feels nice.

And not only am I dreaming about the game, but now I'm humming the theme constantly. I was wandering around the house and my husband goes, "You've got Lemmings on the BRAIN!" Hadn't even consciously realized what I was doing.

Tentative plans to be a Lemming for Halloween if a Toriel costume doesn't pan out??