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I want to play something very unique within the traditional shooter genre, but it's difficult to explain in words how unique 'very unique' is to me, and I think that's where any confusion in the thread has stemmed from. I'm sure pretty much every traditional shooter has some kind of uniqueness to it, even just a difference in the scoring system. One thing that I think puts me at odds with others here is that I don't usually play to beat my score, I play to survive, and when I reach the point where it is no longer a challenge, I don't try to make it challenging by trying to beating my score. The mere act of playing through the level is (hopefully, if I consider the game unique enough) more than enough to entertain me. If I was to improve at the game and beat my score by doing this, that would be a bonus, not the initial goal. It's not what other people usually play the genre for and I realise I'm part of a minority here, and I'm sorry for any confusion regarding that. Also I didn't intend for this to become a debate thread, so I'm sorry about that too.

The rest of this post is now aimed mostly at Doctor, and maybe a few others as well.

In no way do I think the entire genre should change (god no), but I just think developers should try and widen their horizons by experimenting in some radical ways. I mean there's no harm in it is there. At the very worst nothing will come of it. You say games with gimmicks normally end up mediocre, but that's not the fault of the gimmick, that's the fault of the developers (it also depends on your opinion of mediocre). I know you don't mind if your favorite genre dies but you must admit it would be a damn shame, and it isn't a very nice way of thanking the developers that specialise and put the effort into making your favorite niche games. Rather than going the easy route and making games that appeal to a wider audience they stick with shoot em ups, because they care about the genre and they care about the fanbase, albeit small. Do you care about them?

Also, regarding difficulty, I think there should at least be some easier shoot em ups for those who aren't experienced with them. You don't have to play them if you don't want to so there's no harm in them existing. It's great how you jumped in at the deep end and all but it's pretty selfish to expect others to go the difficult route as well. With that logic why do schools have text books? Why do products come with instruction manuals? Hell the only reason shoot em ups were ever especially difficult in the first place is because arcades wanted you to fail so they can take more of your quarters. In fact I think there's absolutely no reason for ANY non-arcade game to just be flat out hard. Non-arcade games should have a decent learning curve and/or difficulty levels (although to be honest most shoot em ups still are arcade games so this is a bit of a moot point).

Finally, you shouldn't go around saying you're proud to be an elitist. An elitist is literally 'a person who has pride in being part of a universally more favorable group of people'. The flaw here is that there is no universally more favorable group of people, because how favourable something is is completely up to opinion, therefore elitism is grouped with pretentiousness and an inflated ego. If you aren't these things you aren't an elitist (more of a 'proud enthusiast'), and if you are these things but don't care, don't be suprised to receive hate from others for it because unfortunately more often than not you'll deserve it.

And don't compare video games to cars. Video games are toys, entertainment, nothing more. The only thing to understand about them is HOW to use them, unless you take part in making them, in which case understanding them also means understanding HOW you make them (which has no effect on the entertainment value of them, because entertainment value is subjective and completely up to opinion). Cars are more than just entertainment. Cars are also transport. It is fully possible to not be using a ferrari to its full potential, for example its speed, you may not be going as fast you could.

As a summary, your 'knowledge' is non existent (unless you know how to make shoot em up video games, in which case only most of it is non existent). It's non existent because it's composed of nothing but opinions, and personal opinions aren't knowledge. And this is the basis of elitism, believing your opinons are facts, when they aren't. That's why elitism is so laughable, because you're delusional to the point where you take pride in something that doesn't even exist.

ok, Doc, i see you're really just after a shmup as a mindless diversion, which is a pity as I think you're missing out on some great entertainment. Following the clarification of your intent in this thread, you should buy 'WarTech; Senko no Ronde' for the xbox 360, it's a true fusion of the japanese beat 'em up and shoot 'em up genres - it's hard to explain past that, but if you've not played it before I think it sounds like what you're after, although you should be under no allusions that this falls within the 'traditional shooter' genre you mention. It cost me less than a tenner on amazon.

Regards the rest of your post... you seem a little confused, we all love to hate the Doctor, but arguing over semantics would seem to miss the points at issue (incidentally, I'm glad this turned into an interesting debate, and look forward to hearing more of other's viewpoints).

There is a danger in elitism to that around which an elitist attitude may form. In some cases, such as playing shooting games for high score, this may be healthy in reinforcing the values of, and building a community around, these games, which will lead to their perpetuation in terms of both those playing and creating them for this established user base. In such circumstances, an elitism is not based around the opinions of those involved, but in their skill and applied knowledge of the subject matter - it's not just holding opinions of a game that may lead one to achieve a score in the trillions. In music, however, the ivory towers erected whilst western European art music was governed by a ruling and monied elite present a very real threat to this tradition. Commercial forces, and indeed the strength of some of the repertoire, appear capable of sustaining 'classical' music as a historical entity, but now more than ever musicians and music lovers are able to turn inwards on the centuries of compositions which are for the first time widely availabe both in print and even recorded form (!) and ignore recent developments and achievements (of which there are many varied and magnificent examples) in favour of this faux elitism which is in very real terms based on the value judgements of those who have not evolved with the genre through the upheavals of the modern age. I'm sure Doc. Fugue is not amongst these inbreds - he should feel free to PM me for recommendations on what he's been missing out on in the last 80 years of traditional european art music Perhaps we should have a thread about this when the Heavy Metal one has died down

Doc wrote:Also I didn't intend for this to become a debate thread, so I'm sorry about that too.

Why are you sorry? This is awesome!

And if you're looking for something TRULY different, you'll do fine with the Ai ChoAniki series. Oh yes, I went there.

So worth the experience, Cho Aniki.

marurun wrote:So worth the experience, Cho Aniki.

Definitely something to show off at parties

Another fun one is Come on Baby for the JPS2.

I'm playing Shippuu Mahou Daisakusen (Kingdom Gran Prix?) and it's gimmicky as a magnified gimmick machine. It's a vertical shooter with racing in it. Actually it's not that bad, if you can find a copy. (For Saturn).

id say einhander on ps1 if you have never played it. it does so many things different than the games you have mentioned. it has 2.5d gameplay, multiple characters (ships) to choose from, and a soundtrack and sound effects that will blow you away! there is a reason it is one of racketboys games that defined the ps....

what's happened to Doc fugue? I didn't really mean you had webbed feet

Man, I'm late to the party here.

As far as unique shooters... maybe Triggerheart Excelica? I really enjoyed the grappling mechanic and it's a steal for $10 on XBLA. Also, for a change of atmosphere I always fall back on Parodius Da! for SNES. Love that one.

As much as I like SHMUPs, I'm not that great at them. I burn through credits like candy sometimes.

theres nothing wrong with burning continues as long as you are getting better...any shooter i pick up takes me a long time to develop any kind of skill at...i use the continues to get better and to me, seeing yourself get better at a shmup is the most rewarding experience in gaming, forget the level ups, forget your ktd in cod4 none of it can compare to getting a perfect run on a game...or even going from 10 continues to 1 in one single day because you put the time into it. Its why ive always loved the genre...and always will