Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

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SonicTheHedgehog
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by SonicTheHedgehog »

MrPopo wrote:The first Phantasy Star only feels like it required more grinding because of the overly long attack animations.
No way, the enemies are definitely stronger in the first game. For example, Owl Bears are one of the first enemies you encounter and they will eat your entire party for breakfast at level 1:

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There's much less of a threat in Phantasy Star II to get your entire party wiped out in a random battle. That was fairly common in the first game unless you built your party way up (i.e. grinded). Healing items were preciously limited, and your mages can only heal a handful of times before depleting all of their MP.
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Sarge
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by Sarge »

Having completed Phantasy Star very, very recently, it follows a similar curve to the original Dragon Warrior. You can get stomped right off the bat if you go to the wrong place, and you need to grind quite early; once you get past the initial hump, the rest of the way is pretty smooth. It does feel like it takes forever to grind, though, and a lot of that is because random battles are so uninteresting. There's no strategic depth at all to keep you engaged, because you can't choose to target individual enemies and efficiently take them out. And some of those animations are really, really long (for an 8-bit RPG).

Of course, it's been a long time since I've actually played PSII, but PSI got really boring for me as far as the battles. And there were very few times where I really felt threatened once past the initial segment. Everyone else's experience may be different, though!
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MrPopo
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by MrPopo »

Sarge wrote:And some of those animations are really, really long (for an 8-bit RPG).
The zombies definitely take the cake. I think they only get beaten out by Bahamut Zero in terms of way too much buildup for the damage; at least Knights of the Round was a series of 13 hits that took forever because of the sheer number of hits.
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laurenhiya21
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by laurenhiya21 »

Personally I don't care too much whether a game is super long or not. Yeah I do like beating games, so playing longer ones makes that a little more difficult, but what really matters to be is what the game does with it's length. For example, I've played a game that took me about three hours to beat but it was so dull and boring that it felt incredibly long (not sure why I beat it to be honest). On the flip side, I have played at least one game where I've dumped in 90+ hours but still wanted to play more.

So I guess I usually don't take the length of a game into consideration, and more if I think I'll enjoy the gameplay and such or not.
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Sarge
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by Sarge »

The real downside to a long game is that it does have more time to drag at points. And I tend to start getting a lot antsier these days about moving on to something new. If a game becomes too familiar, I can often lose interest. I do have to admit that Xenoblade did a good job of holding me in, once I wasn't obsessing about doing all the timed quest stuff.

Totally agree, though, that if a game is fantastic, length is often irrelevant. Unless you're addicted to beating lots of games in a row... but I wouldn't know anything about that. ;)
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SonicTheHedgehog
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by SonicTheHedgehog »

Sarge wrote:Having completed Phantasy Star very, very recently, it follows a similar curve to the original Dragon Warrior. You can get stomped right off the bat if you go to the wrong place, and you need to grind quite early; once you get past the initial hump, the rest of the way is pretty smooth. It does feel like it takes forever to grind, though, and a lot of that is because random battles are so uninteresting. There's no strategic depth at all to keep you engaged, because you can't choose to target individual enemies and efficiently take them out. And some of those animations are really, really long (for an 8-bit RPG).
Yeah, sure, I generally agree with this. I didn't have to grind much after I got mid-game. I mean, I did grind to save up for equipment, but it didn't feel like a life-or-death decision -- the grinding was sort of optional at that point. The beginning was miserable though. I got so sick of grinding that I stopped playing it for a few weeks.

What I think made PS1 more difficult was how tedious the grinding was. Neither game gives you much gold for battle, but in the first game, the enemies pack a huge punch. I felt like my characters died a lot. And let's face it, healing up in PS1 is a massive pain in the ass. Outside of the first town, there's really no concept of an inn; so to heal, you need to go to the clinic, select a character, heal... go to the clinic, select a second character, heal... go to the clinic, select a third character, heal... go to the clinic, select a fourth character, heal... in PS2, they added a more "traditional inn" clinic/healing mechanism that recovers everyone in one swoop. The first game (which I did enjoy, by the way) feels very archaic in some regards.

More succinctly, PS1 requires going back to town more often to recover during grinding sessions. The slow and tedious process of healing/reviving in towns exacerbated this and made it even worse.
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SonicTheHedgehog
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by SonicTheHedgehog »

Erik_Twice wrote:Let's put it another way. Myst, if played perfectly, takes less than 10 minutes to complete. But it would be absurd to say it only has 10 minutes of content. And a Sudoku takes only a few seconds to fill out if you already know the answer.The same applies to these old games, the actual "content" is not what you do in a perfect play but what you do to get there: The planning and tweaking and skill-improving.
Myst and Sudoku are both really great examples. In hindsight, I made some sweeping generalizations. As far as platformers go (which were probably the most common type of game on NES), I still stand by what I said.

It takes longer to design a game with 20 levels of easy content than it does to design a game of 5 levels of hard content. The game with 20 levels is going to be require more resources: distinct background music for stages, distinct enemies and sprites for each level, play-testing and bug fixes for 20 levels instead of 5, level designs for all of those stages, etc. As a software engineer, I feel very confident making and standing by this statement. Adding more always increases problems and complexity. Always.

This is not to trivialize the process that went into balancing and fine-tuning games -- but I do think it's easy to romanticize about that. Let me put it this way: say you have a game... Castlevania on NES. Great game that's pretty challenging as is. A simple tweak of the difficulty -- say, doubling the damage that every enemy dishes out and also doubling the number of hits required to kill them -- is going to make the game harder and extend the life of the game, right? The margin for error is smaller and so it will require more skill. That's not "more content" though.

NES games existed in a time when people cared about things like high scores. Arcades featured tough games, because revenue was driven by quarters so more deaths meant more money. Games today appeal to a much more mainstream audience. Most of those people don't want challenge, they want fun. They don't want to have to master a level by playing it over and over again while memorize patterns, they want an easy experience that they're able to leisurely play through. Obviously there are exceptions (Dark Souls, etc), but generally games are way more forgiving now with things like liberal checkpoint placement, regenerating health, hand-holding in-game systems (e.g. quest markers in Elder Scrolls), etc...

I think devs used to get by with very little content and push out laughably short games, because that era of gamers wanted challenge, and challenge makes games last a lot longer than they normally would.
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Sarge
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by Sarge »

I don't think they made short games because it was something they preferred, it was because memory constraints were a huge issue back in the day. Look at all your top-notch NES games. Most of the big-name titles were between 128-256K. There just wasn't room for long experiences unless you were shooting for an RPG, and that made all sorts of compromises graphically to get there. And the larger the game was, the bigger the ROM chip you needed, and memory then was expensive. A good example is Contra. Our version is actually cut down quite a bit to squeeze it into 128K, because bumping it up to 256K would have been more expensive.

On top of that, games were typically made by rather small teams, so they often didn't have the sorts of resources to put long games together, even if they wanted to.

Challenge was certainly used to extend games, though. Part of that was the arcade mentality, but another part was the burgeoning rental market. It wasn't good for sales if the kiddos could rent a game, beat it in 30 minutes, and return it, never to be thought about again.

It's only in the disc era that we've really seen what happens when the devs can really open it up. Sometimes, it's great. Other times, you end up with bloated games that could have done with some significant editing.
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SonicTheHedgehog
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by SonicTheHedgehog »

Nice points, I agree with basically all of what you said.

RE: small dev teams. Short games were somewhat the product of small dev teams for sure, and I think they exploited that and used it to their advantage. From an economics standpoint, wouldn't you rather your 3-team group of devs churn out 2 games annually rather than having a 10-man team releasing only one a year?

This is where I think times have changed. They can't get away with it anymore. Like OP said, "I'm not sure when it happened but apparently if a game isn't 20 hours long 'everyone' gets all upset."

This isn't meant to be a preachy condemnation of devs back in the day. I just think that times and standards have changed.
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BoneSnapDeez
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Re: Why I Rarely Complete Long Games

Post by BoneSnapDeez »

How do y'all feel about Atari games that loop after five minutes?
The correct answer is: THEY RULE.
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