SCHOOL UNIFORMS: Yay or Nay?

[MrPopo]

You've been thinking WAY too hard about this Luke. I think you've been an adult too long to remember what being a kid is really like. Fact of the matter is that kids are not adults, and trying to make them adults before they're adults is a recipe for disaster.

[ZeroAX]

I think otherwise. Especially as the husband of a teacher who has been teaching for over a decade.

I'm fine with clothes being a form of expression when you are a grown adult. Kids, however, need structure. They need rules. And as someone who is slightly successful, I would say kids need to learn early in life how the game is played.

Uniforms do not prevent bullying, but they lower the occurrence of it. It's cheaper for parents, and gives the opportunity to really express themselves during the weekend. It strongly strengthens personality in my view as kids have to depend on their personality, not their clothes to gain popularity.

If everyone looks the same, who will stand out? The person who is deemed as superior by his or her peers. School is a job, not a playground (well, besides recess). Dressing with professionalism doesn't equal assimilation. It means you have to work harder to stand out and not just get a shitty haircut and get 10 gauge earrings.

Also, our government is happy to help with the costs of school uniforms, if not provide for them outright. No worries about being bullied for wearing skips.

What is the Pro argument for NAY on uniforms? I haven't heard a decent one yet. If your clothes are who make you...sad sad state.

Try to be less quarrelsome please. Just because you have those opinions doesn't mean you can enforce them on others. And that's exactly what uniforms would be. The enforcement of something specific unto the entire populace

Most of your arguments can also be used against women dressing in revealing clothes.

Uniforms help reduce bullying? Then why do countries where kids wear mostly uniforms at school have bigger problems with bullying than countries without?

To you school is a job, to me school is a place where a kid can slowly learn to be a useful part of society. And in that society it needs its individuality, and the way it chooses to dress is a part of it.

Just like what music he/she listens to, what games he/she plays ect. Anything that involves personal choice is a form of expression either you want to see it like that or not.

[Forlorn Drifter]

I like how Luke points out that uniforms allows the kids to decide the most superior based on their own set of rules excluding their dress... would that not be either the strongest or the coolest? And the coolest is hardly ever chosen by how they dress. I can say being on the low end of the social totem pole doesn't change with how your dress changes, its based on either money, sports, or sex. Kinda like real life.

I also like the "kids need structure" argument. You need fascism, but only until your 18.

[Luke]

Uniforms help reduce bullying? Then why do countries where kids wear mostly uniforms at school have bigger problems with bullying than countries without?

To you school is a job, to me school is a place where a kid can slowly learn to be a useful part of society.

Yes. Because every country isn't the USA.

Yes. School is a job. You can socialize as much or as little as you'd like, but you are there for a reason.

You've been thinking WAY too hard about this Luke.

Quite possible.

I've heard "As a kid all you want to do is move out, and as an adult all you want is to move back in" and "As an adult all you want to do is relive childhood and as a child you do is plan on what to do when you are an adult".

As someone who has never "grown up", these commonplace sentiments mean nothing to me.

Yup. Over thinking it.

But to me Day Care is for Playing and Learning. School is a place to learn and occasionally have fun.

[Ivo]

Kids, however, need structure. They need rules. And as someone who is slightly successful, I would say kids need to learn early in life how the game is played.

Uniforms do not prevent bullying, but they lower the occurrence of it.
(...)
It's cheaper for parents, and gives the opportunity to really express themselves during the weekend. It strongly strengthens personality in my view as kids have to depend on their personality, not their clothes to gain popularity.

If everyone looks the same, who will stand out? The person who is deemed as superior by his or her peers. School is a job, not a playground (well, besides recess). Dressing with professionalism doesn't equal assimilation. It means you have to work harder to stand out and not just get a shitty haircut and get 10 gauge earrings.

Also, our government is happy to help with the costs of school uniforms, if not provide for them outright. No worries about being bullied for wearing skips.

What is the Pro argument for NAY on uniforms? I haven't heard a decent one yet. If your clothes are who make you...sad sad state.

Luke some of your arguments are rather poor. In fact some of them are somewhat inconsistent with others.

Everyone (not just kids) need structure, but we are also all individuals. The structure they need can be tailored to suit them. Some uniforms will be actually uncomfortable to some individuals. For example, many places will have girl uniform with skirts, or for example some will have kids wearing ties. Many (most?) uniforms may also include a particular shoe type.
The fact that uniforms can be quite uncomfortable for some kids is reason enough for me to be against them. This is also why I wouldn't mind if it is only something you can wear on top of your own clothes (like a jacket).

I don't necessarily agree that uniforms lower bullying, but if you have data on this I'd like to see it. Remember that correlation does not imply causation as well, and I would think schools that enforce uniforms may also be schools who keep a tighter watch on students or have other factors that are the real cause of less bullying.

With clothes these days being mass produced, I can't believe uniforms are really less expensive for the parents unless they happen to be subsidized. If they are, I don't see why they should be subsidized though.
If they are indeed cheaper than even the cheap alternatives then that is indeed a strong point in favour (I don't think it is fair to compare uniforms against "brand" clothes which are expensive just because of the brand name).

Uniforms will not stop the rich kids to be popular just because they are rich, but remove the option for (perhaps artistic kids) to become popular for being able to stand out for their own style (not necessarily expensive clothes).
Rich kids can easily show their wealth regardless of uniforms and "bribe" other kids to "like" them.

You also seem to think kids should start learning how the real world is in school; wearing expensive clothes to show status is (IMO a bit unfortunately) quite a part of the real world - so you are contradicting yourself.

I would say if you need to rely on uniforms to give kids structure and to get less bullying, then THAT is the sad state. Bullying should not be tolerated and kids should be protected without needing to make them all look alike. Their faces are different - or do you propose the uniforms also include masks? Because logically, from your arguments you would also support that.

[Luke]

You need fascism, but only until your 18.

Never said you needed it, but it exists. Better to learn at a young age that life ain't all about you.

I was once pulled aside at a job for wearing a blue dress shirt. "You can wear whatever you'd like when you make quota, but only a white shirt with a black suit for now".

That's life in the real world.

[Luke]

You also seem to think kids should start learning how the real world is in school; wearing expensive clothes to show status is (IMO a bit unfortunately) quite a part of the real world - so you are contradicting yourself.

You missed the point by a mile and maybe didn't read my full post.

FREE CLOTHES. How is that expensive?

[Ivo]

You missed the point by a mile and maybe didn't read my full post.

FREE CLOTHES. How is that expensive?

I read your full post and replied respectfully. I see where your confusion may be arising.

The contradiction is that
a) you believe kids should get a taste of the real world
b) you advocate for uniforms that "protect" them from a particular aspect of the real world (expensive clothes for status)
c) claim that having uniforms gives them a taste of the real world, when there are mostly no uniforms in the real world outside (para)military forces. In such forces there are also always ranks, which clearly defeat the purpose of not having status just from the clothes by definition.

I don't believe they are free. If they are free to the families, someone else paid for them. Whether people with no kids should subsidize uniforms for those who have kids is a whole different discussion.

Personally I agree with subsidized canteen food, particularly for poorer families (but the canteen should also not be compulsory).

I still disagree with "free" school uniforms for every kid (including those who can afford better clothes).
It is a bit of a left-leaning idea for someone in the U.S. as well, so I'm a bit surprised you would support it and funnily enough most of the Europeans in the thread seem to be against it as well (EDIT: it is 2 against 1 for Europeans - btw Menegrothx, I would also wear exactly the same clothes every day without problem - but I would want to choose it, not have it imposed, particularly for shoes).

[flex wood]

I think otherwise. Especially as the husband of a teacher who has been teaching for over a decade.

Why don't you wait until you have a kid then to make up your mind?

I'm fine with clothes being a form of expression when you are a grown adult. Kids, however, need structure. They need rules. And as someone who is slightly successful, I would say kids need to learn early in life how the game is played.

Kids need structure sounds like something a guy that has never been around a kid in their life would say. Kids are creative little geniuses and you're suggesting stifling them before they know who they are yet. I'm wondering why anyone is even taking this thread seriously when it's clear Luke has a very one sided point of view.

Also, our government is happy to help with the costs of school uniforms, if not provide for them outright. No worries about being bullied for wearing skips.

I'm going to go on record and say that this is the stupidest thing I have ever read on the internet. Most school districts are going broke, where the hell is the money for uniforms going to come from.

[dsheinem]

I'd hate a career where I was expected to wear a white shirt and not a blue one. That's not everyone's "real world".