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General_Norris wrote:Surprisingly, there are very few computer RPGs I find important to play since Dragon Quest clones aglutinate most of the market.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Dragon Quest took the formula laid down in Ultima III and ran with it, but CRPGs explored a bunch of different directions after that.

General_Norris wrote:Surprisingly, there are very few computer RPGs I find important to play since Dragon Quest clones aglutinate most of the market. And when Toon, Paranoia or Amber Diceless Roleplaying, actual RPGs, haven't made the cut I can't put FFVII in there.


By the way, I expect a big slapping for omitting many games and an ever bigger one because I added RPGs and Boardgames. Also a slap from those people for not including enough of them

Board games and pen and paper RPGs are not video games. The assumption that game design should be something like board game/trading card game design is stupid. Video games are video games and should be treated as such. Sticking to conventions will only hold down the medium. And there's no excuse for basing a video game on D&D rules, even if some of the best RPGs of all time used ADD/DD rules (PS:T and BG2. When it comes to 1980s RPGs, Pool of Radiance is as essential as Wasteland. Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Night games are also notable, although by no means essential). That dice rolling shit has no place in a video game. Yes, all RPGs use RNG, but I'm talking about telling how much damage a sword does in dice rolls and stuff like that.

Menegrothx wrote: The assumption that game design should be something like board game/trading card game design is stupid.

Except that many of the greatest games of all time have been adapted from pen and paper. Pool of Radiance, like you mention, Baldur's gate, Kotor, all basically D&D rules. Strategy RPGs are hugely influenced by war gaming. You can't argue with resultes.

That dice rolling shit has no place in a video game. Yes, all RPGs use RNG, but I'm talking about telling how much damage a sword does in dice rolls and stuff like that.

Why not? You've stated your position strongly, but haven't provided any rationale.

While I admittedly think a list pertaining to video games shouldn't include tabletops and boardgames since they aren't video games, I think they should at least be suggested or referenced when discussing those games.

Menegrothx wrote:Board games and pen and paper RPGs are not video games.

You don't say?


But they are games and important ones. Ignoring a game because it's made of cardboard it's like ignoring Birth of a Nation because it isn't animation, it just doesn't make any sense.

I'm making a list, of games any game critic should play. This includes boardgames because they are games. I would also include pinball, if I knew more about them, because pinball is also a game. So is Dungeons and Dragons, at least as much as Simcity is.

It's even sillier to make a distinction to think about it. Should you write about Archon if you have never played Chess? Write about Yomi if you know nothing of Street Fighter? What about Jeff Briggs? Did he have to learn how to make games twice because he worked with Microprose and Avalon Hill? And what about Sid Meier? Isn't Pirates! practically Blackbeard in the same way Planet Steam is MULE?

Games are games, dammit.

After discussing this in another topic recently, a side note on this mainstream thing:
just browsed the offtopic section (yes i have too much freetime in my work:) and found people watching movies like Batman, Superman, Star Trek and stuff like this. mainstream american movies in general. I am not going to generalize but seems like a community is diverging from the mainstream in one thing then almost necessarily level out in the others.
Maybe this is a misunderstanding based on biases as i won't recommend Erich Rohmer or Marco Ferreri movies because i suspect they are out of interest - and maybe not while others think the same. And it makes sense since i don't recommend Saturn shmups to my friends who read contemporary russian novels and watching French New Wave and thinks gaming is for age 12-.
But it raises the question why am i used to go to theatre, contemporary exhibitions, listening to experimental electronica, watching french newwave and playing SAT shmups and going to parties at once while this combo is almost impossible based on my experiences. These are not opposites or not exclusives -it is the opposite by logic. They are going hand in hand for me.
However i don't despise no one for not living that wide range - just better to have not only one common with someone or a community.

What country are you from dtrack?

I don't hear many people discuss New Wave cinema very often. Jules et Jim is one of my favorite films though.

dtrack wrote:After discussing this in another topic recently, a side note on this mainstream thing:
just browsed the offtopic section (yes i have too much freetime in my work:) and found people watching movies like Batman, Superman, Star Trek and stuff like this. mainstream american movies in general. I am not going to generalize but seems like a community is diverging from the mainstream in one thing then almost necessarily level out in the others.
Maybe this is a misunderstanding based on biases as i won't recommend Erich Rohmer or Marco Ferreri movies because i suspect they are out of interest - and maybe not while others think the same. And it makes sense since i don't recommend Saturn shmups to my friends who read contemporary russian novels and watching French New Wave and thinks gaming is for age 12-.
But it raises the question why am i used to go to theatre, contemporary exhibitions, listening to experimental electronica, watching french newwave and playing SAT shmups and going to parties at once while this combo is almost impossible based on my experiences. These are not opposites or not exclusives -it is the opposite by logic. They are going hand in hand for me.
However i don't despise no one for not living that wide range - just better to have not only one common with someone or a community.

I think there is a different issue at play though, that somehow we cannot enjoy both the mainstream and the niche. For example, I've seen the films you pointed to as American mainstream, but I've also watched a large mix of French New Wave (Jean-Pierre Melville is probably my favorite director associated with the movement, with L' Armée des ombres being my favorite of his films), chanbara and Japanese gangster films, silent film, Chinese cinema from the last 40 years, exploitation cinema, both pro- and anti-war cinema, documentaries, biopics, giallo thrillers, B-grade science fiction, so on and so forth. I watch a mixture of these things because the artistry which can be displayed in film, the action and experience, the representation or dismissal of ideas, the conveyance of emotion, appeals to me. So in my search to examine and experience, I have integrated both the mainstream and the lesser appreciated in an attempt to become more well-rounded. For the record, my favorite films include a German silent horror film, a 1980s fantasy action film both applauded and derided for its suspected right-wing mentality based entirely on the writing of a poor pulp novelist who shot himself in the 1930s, and a gangster film based on a comic based on a popular Japanese chanbara series. My favorite director has released a musical, two childrens films, a plethora of Japanese gangster movies, horror films, romances, several chanbara pieces, and a slew of gore films, including one famous for its torture sequence.

I'd say games are th same way. If you want to really get to know the format, you'll have to play both the mainstream and the niche to enjoy the variety of experiences that an interactive format can present. Some will come across as childish. Some won't. And learning about the fights and foibles of the medium attempting to overcome its problems with various forms of thinking and its perceived position make for more fun.

Ack, I agree all the above and i also like Miike however far from my favorite even out of Japanese directors.
I was talking about most of the people here who seem to know video games very well but their interest is narrowed down to them. Even if they slightly into any other medium, their interest is not the "art form" but only the highly commercial entertainment layer. This is a bit weird for me but seems it is the standard.
I have been thinking about this for a while and come to the conclusion it is connected with the problem video games aren't "officially" accepted as the 7th art. There are signs of this being ongoing but will take time. Movies got support culturally and financially from the state as every art thus there is no need to worry about sales. Some pieces can gain cult status even if it won't reach wide audience and are commercial failure. Video game companies are not supported by the state, they always have to deal the same pressure as hollywood: the need to produce mass-consumable product. If not then they have much less budget so the production values will be decreased drastically.

dtrack wrote:I have been thinking about this for a while and come to the conclusion it is connected with the problem video games aren't "officially" accepted as the 7th art.

What are the other six? I think there are more than only six arts...

Movies got support culturally and financially from the state as every art thus there is no need to worry about sales. Some pieces can gain cult status even if it won't reach wide audience and are commercial failure. Video game companies are not supported by the state, they always have to deal the same pressure as hollywood: the need to produce mass-consumable product. If not then they have much less budget so the production values will be decreased drastically.

There's plenty of State involvement in the games industry at many levels - the Art of Video Games exhibit at the Smithsonian was the highest profile one, but more states/cities/etc. increasingly have things like this: http://www.massdigi.org/

Plus, plenty of games research is funded by federal grants...as are some games http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/05/i ... s-waiting/