Why DON'T you kill people?

[Ack]

Over the years, I've thought about this a good deal as I've repeatedly heard calls about violence in the media I chose to consume. I do watch violent movies and play violent games. I've participated in violent sporting activities and own multiple firearms, amongst other tools of combat or warfare. I have no intention or desire to kill another human being, nor do I want to so much as hurt one if I can possibly avoid it. But I also realize that I will defend myself if necessary, and if that requires I kill another human being to save myself or others, then I will do it and suffer the consequences, be they legal, physical, or psychological. But I do not intentionally seek this scenario and would much prefer to avoid it altogether.

To Gamerforlife's point, yes, the military does require a certain amount of indoctrination as well as physical training to turn a recruit into a soldier. The easiest way to do this is to extol the virtues of whatever military or organization you are doing while intentionally dehumanizing whoever those soldiers are likely to face. It is much easier to kill any other animal than it is a human in terms of our psychology. Psychopaths also intentionally dehumanize their prey and other human beings in an attempt to elevate themselves over their own species.

And even when this level of indoctrination and the instillation of a kill-or-be-killed mentality are achieved, it does not necessarily make it easy for the person doing the fighting. My father was a soldier and has several confirmed kills, but though he did them during wartime, it bothers him to this day. Yes, he killed someone, and legally faced no repercussions because it was an act of warfare. But the psychological scars are still there, no matter what he has done to deal with it.

But my father has something that I think makes it easier for psychopaths or other violent or psychologically disturbed individuals to kill because they lack it: a respect and value for others. If dehumanizing works to make people seem like nothing more than animals or meat, then humanizing them has the opposite effect. For instance, humanizing African Americans was a vital part of the effort to abolish slavery in the US and then to desegregate America. When we conquered Native American territory, we told ourselves they were savages and nothing better, but now we struggle with our history when considering what we did because we attempt to foster a greater respect for their cultures that we managed to mangle in the assertion of our own dominance. The same is true for colonization around the world, where any government enabled the conquering and control of a "lesser" people.

Fear of retribution for not committing violent acts can also lead people to murder or to spy on others and turn over friends and neighbors to people whom they know will kill. Fear is what makes groups like the SS, the Stasi, or the NKVD so powerful.

[Hazerd]

I think we need a Psychology forum

[AznKhmerBoi]

Dont know about others, but i would if it justifiable like World War 2 situation.
Could you imagine if the world was govern by the Japanese and Nazi...

[Flake]

I've never wanted to kill anyone. I have never been in a situation where taking someone's life seemed like it had a position in my decision making matrix.

There's a reason why I chose the US Navy for my military service.

[elmagicochrisg]

There's a few people I would love to kill.

And one I would love to torture for as long as I can keep him alive, which would be months / years preferably...

What's keeping me?...

The fact that I'm not 100 percent sure I could get away with it without punishment.

One thing's for sure. Some people better hope I never get a 'You only have 6 more months to live' diagnose...

I'd have a ball...

Oh yeah, someone tries to severely hurt / kill my cats, last thing they will probably see is my pale wide-eyed face and a hammer coming down. Nothing would stop me from protecting my girls...

I love my girls... ^^

[J T]

And even when this level of indoctrination and the instillation of a kill-or-be-killed mentality are achieved, it does not necessarily make it easy for the person doing the fighting. My father was a soldier and has several confirmed kills, but though he did them during wartime, it bothers him to this day. Yes, he killed someone, and legally faced no repercussions because it was an act of warfare. But the psychological scars are still there, no matter what he has done to deal with it.

I don't think many people appreciate our veterans for this kind of sacrifice. So many come home with regrets, yet, what else are you supposed to do? Once your boys are on the ground, its kill or be killed. They shouldn't have to be put into that situation, but that's where they are. It's an everlasting headfuck from then on because you either feel bad because you care, or you feel bad because you've had to force yourself to not care.

I used to think a lot about joining the military and particularly about whether I could kill another man. I believe I have the capacity to do it. I could shut off. I could not care. I don't know if I could live with myself long term. Sometimes, I think I'm clever enough that I could probably find a way, but perhaps that's just ego talking. In highschool, I loved the book Crime and Punishment, which dealt with the idea of whether you could kill another person for no good reason and still go about your life without being crushed by guilt. This book made me think about killling people more than any video game ever has, but it also pulled no punches about the negative consequences of taking the life of another.

Ultimately, I know I won't kill anyone. Even under some extreme scenario, it's hard for me to justify the action. What keeps me from killing is very similar to what Dinner X said:

1. I'm alive and I most always like being alive, so why would I want to take that away from someone else when I know how important it is to me?

Fundamentally we all have a right to life. We each want to pursue our own happiness and to live our lives the way that we see fit. In order to do that in any sensible way, we have to collaborate in a society. Though the hunter/warrior is in our biology, so is the humanist and the altruist. Humans work better in groups, and the hive mind has been finely sharpened by natural selection just as much as our blades have. Basically, we all need to enter some unwritten social contract that preserves everyone's right to life and free pursuit of happiness. I'm not a religious man, so I don't follow any dogmatic morality, but i do have values for my fellow man that develop out of the basic need to rely on others (and those values pretty much wind up looking rather like the moral guidelines you would find in religion).

[elmagicochrisg]

Someone rapes and tortures your wife / kids to death. You find that person.

Ultimately, I know I won't kill anyone. Even under some extreme scenario, it's hard for me to justify the action.

I dunno man...

[Nintendork666]

Most of the games I play aren't very violent (at least not against humans), but I am a horror movie nut - the gorier, the better.

It's funny though because I'm the sort of person who quickly grows nauseous, and light-headed when I'm around someone who is bleeding badly. I can't handle that type of stuff in person, which is why I think I get such a kick out of fake gore.

That's not the reason I don't kill people though. I'm just not a violent person whatsoever.

[jfrost]

In highschool, I loved the book Crime and Punishment, which dealt with the idea of whether you could kill another person for no good reason and still go about your life without being crushed by guilt. This book made me think about killling people more than any video game ever has, but it also pulled no punches about the negative consequences of taking the life of another.

In Crime and Punishment, Rodka rationalizes his killing exactly the way Ack describes, by thinking he's superior to other people. The book is him coming to terms with the fact that he's just normal, perhaps because he couldn't take the killing lightly (as he thought superior people did).

[J T]

What's keeping me?...

The fact that I'm not 100 percent sure I could get away with it without punishment.

It's peculiar to me that you and many others are primarily detered by the threat of getting caught and punished. The reason I wouldn't kill someone is because of my own prosocial values. Even if there were no consequences of punishment, I still wouldn't kill anyone. Even though I think I could get over my conscience bugging me, I still wouldn't kill anyone. For me, it ultimately just seems illogical and it violates my own personal code of ethics.

But this gets at the heart of my answer to the original question- it's our values that keep us from killing. But, if someone doesn't have those same prosocial values, then is there a way to train them into that person? Do we have an obligation to do that? Do we even have a right to do that?