Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

[noiseredux]

If you cant sell the game in physical form, you are pretty much saying that it's not a proper game.

I don't get that at all. They've figured out a way to release niche games that would not be lucrative if they sold in physical format so that they now will be lucrative. Consumer gets niche games for cheaper than physical games cost, and the publisher actually turns a profit. Win win.

Oh and the games exist. In this generation. Which I thought was what you were arguing against?

How do you think that Sonic survived between Sonic Adventure 1/2 (depending on what's your opinnion on SA2) and Sonic Colors/Generations? By the power of nostalgia. Brand name is everything. Just because a few old timers are still able to pull it of does not mean that any new game would've been forgiven if they had published the exact same game.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about here and how it relates to your claim that there are under-represented genres this generation. (?)

[RyaNtheSlayA]

If you cant sell the game in physical form, you are pretty much saying that it's not a proper game. Freeware, iOS and browser games will never get the same kind of respect commercial games do for a reason. A 50 hour long RPG with decent production values, good writing and game mechanics or a well crafted adventure game should be on the same level as that annual Madden release, not on the same level as Angry Birds.

This is some of the biggest bullshit I've ever heard. You're telling me that because you can't go buy Counter Strike or Faster Than Light in a box that they're somehow not proper games? Those two games are about as hardcore and "proper" as you can get in their genre's.

Did you ever consider, that the reason a lot of these games aren't sold at retail is because that business model doesn't suit them? Just because a game is $15 and download only does not make it less of a "proper" game.

I'm not saying that all free or nonprofit games are bad, but that they rarely (there are some exceptions) have any real significance on the gaming industry the same way retail games do.

And you're saying that all retail games do have a major impact? Please, there is just as much shit for $60 in a box as there is shit for $15 downloaded from the internet. I'm sure Just Dance II is much more of an influence than, you know, Minecraft.

PC gaming is the largest example of digital distribution being completely viable and something that matters in the market. Tons of great games do extremely well that are download only on all systems as well. Whether it's Journey on PSN or Dust on XBLA. Hell, World of Goo on Wii.

[Violent By Design]

I think you just have a very stubborn view on how times are changing, in regards to treating games that are digitally download only as inferior to physical copies (this sounds like some segregation debate ).

An odd phrase caught my eye when viewing the past few post, you said something along the line of "a game that is digitally downloaded will never have the respect of a commercial release". I might have misquoted you since I am too lazy to click on the back button and check, but this catches my eye for a few reasons.

1) The respect from whom exactly?

2) How is a digital download not a commercial release?

You also seemed to have implied that digital downloads do not have major impacts on the industry. But this is actually backwards, in fact, they have so much impact that it is apparent that physical copies will become a thing of the past.

Team Fortress 2, Dota2 (yes, I know it is Beta only but there are talks of it not having a physical release anyway), League of Legends - all download only and those games are huge. They represent today's gaming culture just as much as Call of Duty does.

Angry Birds has even transcended the video game community, and it is part of modern day culture. People who do not play video games wear their merchandise and play the franchise on a regular basis. Plants vs Zombies, Bejeweled and Doodle Jump are up there as well.

So actually the indie/digital market has become a big player in its own right.

Journey is also nominated for Spike TVs game of the year in their video game awards, which means it will have national exposure amongst casual and core gamers.

No they're not. Action adventure is not the same thing as adventure.

I don't see how LA Noire or Heavy Rain can be action adventure (there are hardly any action elements). I certainly don't see how Fate Zero can be one considering it is an interactive novel. There is also Professor Layton and Phoenix Wright series.

Here's a top 100 list if you're ever interested in looking up some adventures (quite a few are from this generation). http://www.adventuregamers.com/articles/view/18643

All based on existing franchises from previous generations

Rather arbitrary point I would think. Are we not discussing what genres are being represented? I mean this is the first time a good 3D Sonic game has ever been released (Sonic Adventure games are product of their times) but you're totally dismissing them.

Addresses this on my last post

I'm still not really sure what you mean. Some of the games you mentioned are not that plot heavy for an RPG either. RPGs are a dime a dozen in every generation, there has to be a ton of RPGs that meet what ever criteria you're trying to make.

Isn't Golden Sun a GBA game?

Yes, there are two Golden Sun games on the GBA game. There's a 10 year gap between Golden Sun 2 and the latest one for the DS.

Can we stick to actual genres?
No, since modern FPS games are generally garbage compared to older ones.

Gross generalization, but okay. Also, Team Fortress 2.

Call of Duty and all modern warfare shooters are very slow paced as they've been designed for game pads rather than mouses.

You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by slow paced. Considering how tiny the maps are, I would say that that has little basis. Call of Duty is more fast pace than say a game like Counter-Strike which is far from a realistic game as well. In less you're going to only cite games that have Bunny hopping and rocket jumping as fast past games.

Another World/Out of this world, Flashback, Blackthorne, Oddworld: Abe's Odyssey+Exoddus and Heart of Darkness are cinematic platformers.

Hm..cant really comment on this since I don't have much experience with those games.

Elite, Wing Commander, Privateer, X-wing

Never played them .

Both are downloadable games. Marvel Ultimate Alliance is ARPG according to wiki, I haven't tried it out myself so I don't know if that's true.

MUA has RPG elements, but I would not say its primary genre is RPG. There isn't even gear from what I remember.

[brunoafh]

Although I don't agree with Menegrothx's "DLC games don't count" point of view, I very much agree with his point that this gen is lacking in diversity (in the retail world), and would say that's pretty much a fact. Just because there's a 3D Mario game and a Back to the Future game doesn't mean that 3D platformers and adventure games are spoken for and even with everything else this gen. If you put down the amount of FPSes and sports games on paper, and stack them on the more niche genres Menegrothx mentioned, they would just about crush them into dust and bury them at the same time. Compare genre diversity to previous gens and there's no competition. The market isn't about diversity anymore, it's about what prints money.

I don't agree that the RPG market is dying though, thankfully the Japanese require RPGs to function properly and they're able to thrive on handhelds, and even PS3. As for shmups, yeah, there's Cave and G.rev. That's about it.

[noiseredux]

The market isn't about diversity anymore, it's about what prints money.

I would say that was true of every generation.

I'm also confused why Madden/sports games have been brought up multiple times. Which video game generation was it exactly that didn't have a lot of sports games?

[Violent By Design]

Although I don't agree with Menegrothx's "DLC games don't count" point of view, I very much agree with his point that this gen is lacking in diversity (in the retail world), and would say that's pretty much a fact. Just because there's a 3D Mario game and a Back to the Future game doesn't mean that 3D platformers and adventure games are spoken for and even with everything else this gen. If you put down the amount of FPSes and sports games on paper, and stack them on the more niche genres Menegrothx mentioned, they would just about crush them into dust and bury them at the same time. Compare genre diversity to previous gens and there's no competition. The market isn't about diversity anymore, it's about what prints money.

I don't agree that the RPG market is dying though, thankfully the Japanese require RPGs to function properly and they're able to thrive on handhelds, and even PS3. As for shmups, yeah, there's Cave and G.rev. That's about it.

Can you tell me what generation has a more diverse set of games genre wise than the current one?

Every generation is about printing money, let's not try to pretend like the industry has become less virtuous.

Who cares if there are more FPS than "2D RPGs" (not really a genre). It's not like there is going to be a perfect balance. As many FPS as there are now, there were far more 2D platformers back in the 2D days, the alleged days when everything was all innovative and dandy.

[Violent By Design]

Aside from that, the argument is now changing from old school genres not being well represented to lack of innovation. Two totally different arguments.

Also, I am pretty sure Angry Birds has made much bigger profits than Madden has, so I find it strange that someone implied that Angry Birds is some how the lesser game. Mass Effect and Skyrim are insanely popular RPGs, the argument that an RPG that has a ton of hours, high production and writing do not get respect doesn't make sense to me. I see it as quite the opposite. I look at some of these rpgs as games that are like big time movies, they're basically just made by having tons of money to pump them up, and people will buy them due to how huge the scale is. I really could not disagree more with the RPG point, RPGs are so well represented (and successful), I really do not see how someone can say there is a lack of them.

[isiolia]

Although I don't agree with Menegrothx's "DLC games don't count" point of view, I very much agree with his point that this gen is lacking in diversity (in the retail world), and would say that's pretty much a fact.

True, but the big difference between the current generation and previous is that the additional online market is here now with games/genres that would otherwise just not be there at all.

Though, to be fair, all of the current consoles have much bigger, more diverse retail libraries than a trip to Best Buy would tend to indicate. Of course, the games I consistently saw on the shelves during the 16-bit era, 32-bit, and so on tended to not represent the true breadth of the time periods either.

To me, it's less a matter of the curent generation lacking, and more that we're still in the middle of it. The good/great is still mixed in with the mediocre. Meanwhile, previous generations are looked on favorably because we can cherry-pick the best games out of them and pretend they were all like that.

But, that's the point of retro gaming, at least to me. Play the best (or what interests you) no matter when it came out.

[Menegrothx]

I don't get that at all. They've figured out a way to release niche games that would not be lucrative if they sold in physical format so that they now will be lucrative. Consumer gets niche games for cheaper than physical games cost, and the publisher actually turns a profit. Win win.

Oh and the games exist. In this generation. Which I thought was what you were arguing against?

And who will buy these niche games if they're only available in digital form? People who are intentionally trying to find out niche stuff. Your average casual gamer wont be able to make an impulse purchase at the game store. The games that have the potential to become surprisingly big thanks to word to mouth advertising never do because only a bunch of hardcore gamers bought the game. It's like music (or movies), unless you're intentionally searching for something in particular, you wont stumble across anything unique or awesome if you only stick with the TOP 40 list. Only people who are really into the stuff know about all the hidden gems, average consumer has a very narrow and ignorant view because the market is not diverse enough, so they wont get exposed to any cool stuff.

I know from personal experience that as a kid I stumbled across some really weird and awesome games by accident thanks to the fact that more niche games were available in physical format.


And since we're on a game collector forum, the issue of not having games in physical format is a very big deal to many people here, including me.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about here and how it relates to your claim that there are under-represented genres this generation. (?)

Many people (so called fan boys) will buy something simply because they are familiar with the brand name. Mario Tennis? Sonic RPG? "Well it has Mario/Sonic in the title so I must buy it!" New IPs do not have that luxury.

You cant say that 3D platformers are doing well just because well established platformer franchises are still able to publish new 3D platformer games. People think of Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine when buying a new 3D mario platformer, but if some unknown studio published a new game that looks and plays exactly like that, most consumers would not give it the benefit of the doubt and simply ignore it because they're not familiar with the brand so they're not willing to take a risk.

This is some of the biggest bullshit I've ever heard. You're telling me that because you can't go buy Counter Strike or Faster Than Light in a box that they're somehow not proper games? Those two games are about as hardcore and "proper" as you can get in their genre's.

But you can buy Counter Strike in a box. Anyways mods aren't the same thing as the core game.

And you're saying that all retail games do have a major impact? Please, there is just as much shit for $60 in a box as there is shit for $15 downloaded from the internet. I'm sure Just Dance II is much more of an influence than, you know, Minecraft.

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. Rushed games with bad production values and no real effort put behind them don't need nor deserve a boxed copy (=browser/iOS games, shovelware and so on). If you can sell all kinds of mediocre and bad games for 60 dollars in a game store, then they should not have problem selling niche games in physical format, provided that the production values are decent and so on. Instead of having 20 different FPS games for sale in the same store, why not get rid of the bad shooters and get some better niche games instead? You could still have 10 different same looking FPS games for sale, but also a few oldschool RPGs, an adventure game and a cinematic platformer on the side. I dont see how having a more diverse selection is a bad thing.

And what I meant is that generally speaking all the most influental games in every single genre have always been commercial games. Either arcade or computer/console games that were sold in stores. There are some great indie games, I don't hate them. I just haven't seen indie games that could out do their commercial counterparts (Minecraft for example does not have a commercial counterpart, it's an unique game). Even though having a small development team is a good thing, there's only so much you can do with very limited resoursces. In the 1990s there was a better balance - developers did have proper budgets and enough people to make legit games, but the teams weren't nearly as huge as today. Too disconnected and large development team ->impossible to make a truly visionary game. The first few Ultima games were made by Richard Garriott alone.

There are some exceptions like Dwarf Fortress like NetHack.




Btw I own boxed collector edition copies of Super Meat Boy and Trine:) I've even bought downloadable games on my 360!

[Violent By Design]

I also forgot to mention Charles Barkley: SHUT UP AND JAM! Gaiden for 2D RPGs. The greatest RPG of all time