Guitar Games

[SpaceBooger]

Turntables aren't instruments.

Unless you're DJ Q-Bert.

Thank you!

I spent much of my youth playing DJ and making mixes. I can link some if anyone would like but they are hip-hop and are NSFW (they are amateur, but I did sell some CDs in a local hip-hop store.)

Niode... I do want to say that I am interested in DJ Hero, but I don't like when people relate that to the real thing (and the same for other music games.)

[crux]

I do want to say that I am interested in DJ Hero, but I don't like when people relate that to the real thing (and the same for other music games.)

Also, the drumming in both Drummania and Rock Band is pretty damn similar to the real thing. A lot of people actually use electronic drum kits (DTXplorer is a popular choice) for Drummania.

Also see: Keyboardmania

[Niode]

I refuse to accept that a turntable is an instrument. It's no more an instrument as a pan, or a piece of wood, it can be used to make music, but it's not the sole purpose of it. It's not even the intended purpose of it.

Turntable != Instrument.

I'm not debating the validity of the device as a means of creating music, I like a lot of music that features a turntablist. I just don't think you can really class it as an instrument. Likewise, you can't be classed as a musician if you can't actually play an instrument.

[CRTGAMER]

Can of worms. How about this for REZ?

[crux]

I'm not sure of your point. Are you implying that drums were originally conceived as a membrane stretched over a shell? Because I can assure you they were far more rudimentary and were likely conceived incidentally (more akin to banging a wooden spoon on a pot).

Turntables aren't a traditional instrument, but that's the most you'll get out of me. Your definition of an "instrument" is far too rigid. Turntablism has roots that go back nearly three decades. Comparing it to a pot and a spoon is either a compliment to the pot or an insult to turntablism.

[J T]

Turntable != Instrument.

I'm just going to pretend that you added that exclamation point for emphasis and not to be used as a mathematical operand and ignore the rest of what you said.

The degree to which a turntablist like Q-bert uses a turntable to emit organized patterns of sound is for all-intents-and-purposes an instrument, regardless of whether or not the turntable was only originally invented for nonstop playback of pre-recorded music. If designers intent is important though (which it isn't really), there are clearly turntables and records designed specifically for the creation of music, not just for straight playback.

I think I'll end it here though before this turns into a big debate full of philosophical wankery about how we know when a chair is actually a chair.

[bobbynewmarkiii]

haha! Debate!

From the online dictionary:

instrument
n [ˈɪnstrəmənt]
1. a mechanical implement or tool, esp one used for precision work surgical instrument
2. (Music / Instruments) Music any of various contrivances or mechanisms that can be played to produce musical tones or sounds
3. an important factor or agency in something her evidence was an instrument in his arrest
4. Informal a person used by another to gain an end; dupe; tool
5. (Physics / General Physics) a measuring device, such as a pressure gauge or ammeter
6. (Engineering / Aeronautics)
a. a device or system for use in navigation or control, esp of aircraft
b. (as modifier) instrument landing
7. (Law) a formal legal document

Decks can be used to produce musical tones or sounds, that these are recreated from a pre-existing source should be immaterial - if that is not accepted, then a large portion of electronic pianos would have to be discounted as these play samples (i.e. short recordings) of acoustic pianos for each key press.

As a straight CD player or turntable, I agree that it would be hard to class decks as a musical instrument, but when used as a tool to create a unique performance, these fit the criteria. The capabilities of modern CD decks are quite staggering - with the right source materials it is possible to create a significant remix of an existing recording 'on the fly'.

Even pots and pans can be musical instruments in the right hands - that's what percussion is all about.

I still don't get guitar hero though - would much rather get together with some musicians and 'jam'

[crux]

Now that we can change subjects, I don't get people that don't "get" games like Guitar Hero. Do they not understand that rhythms games are (usually*) far more accessible, or are they just smug?

Besides which, as someone who has both played various instruments and adores rhythm games, there's room for both!

*See: Beatmania IIDX

[J T]

I'd like to see more rhythm games that aren't necessarily about playing gigs in a band. I like the games like Parappa the Rapper, Space Channel 5, or Rez that are rhythm based, but try to do something unusual and fantastical with their musical aspect.

I would love to see an over-the-top metal game about going to the crossroads to battle Satan in a guitar shredding battle. I imagine an RPG adventure where you battle through music duels to work your way into a battle with the devil himself. Lots of heavy metal cliches, led zeppelin references, that sort of thing. The degree to which you rock kills demons.

[bobbynewmarkiii]

Now that we can change subjects, I don't get people that don't "get" games like Guitar Hero. Do they not understand that rhythms games are (usually*) far more accessible, or are they just smug?

Besides which, as someone who has both played various instruments and adores rhythm games, there's room for both!

*See: Beatmania IIDX

I just find rhythm games totally boring... It's like music lite. You just don't get so many of the important features of what makes music what it is. For one, it's only rhythm - no pitch (or limited pitch). For two, there's no sheet music - sight reading is so much more challenging and interesting. For three - it's the same thing over and over again, with the ultimate goal of playing it exactly like the machine. There's no room for expression, interpretation or development - these are integral to music itself. For four - the tracks these games choose are always utterly pedestrian chart drivel. For five - which is very similar to four, and in diametric opposition to two; you can't improvise - improvising takes music to another level, which is totally inaccessible to 'guitar hero' and the like. I appreciate there are many holes in these arguements, and that these game's don't pretend to offer the kind of musical experience possible through practise, development of musicianship skills and playing with other musicians, but that's just the way I see it - with utter contempt

I liked Rez though - it didn't pretend to be something that it was not - a rail shooter with a rhythmically integrated musical score.