Piracy is not so bad

[MrPopo]

I honestly feel that we don't have real concrete data on how piracy directly affects sales. We all can offer anecdotes from our personal life. When I was in high school the only games I bought were PC games that needed a legit copy to play online without hassal. Anything single player I'd pirate, since I had a limited budget for games and so I went with things that wouldn't be fully functional without buying them. Of course, then you can make an argument that had I been unable to pirate those games I would have instead purchased a few of the single player titles in leu of the multiplayer ones instead. It's a valid point to make. There's also the slippery slope argument that once someone is in the habit of pirating games they won't buy any that have no incentive for the purchase. Once again, I point to the single player PC game of the late 90's. With a keygen/cd hack there was no reason to purchase those unless you were the type who liked having a real hard copy and all the things that come with it (box/manual).

However, I think companies go about their copy protection in the wrong way. It is a guarentee that a game will be cracked and available for anyone who wants it shortly after release (if not before). It has been proven time and time again that you cannot defeat these people. The best you can do is impede them for a little bit, but most of the time this involves measures that can cause issues for your legitimate customer base. There are almost no cases of someone who attemps to pirate something, is defeated by the copy protection, and then buys the game legitimately. So the best measures, in my opinion, is to provide incentive for someone to purchase your product. Use the CD Key to only allow legitimate users to play online, or use it to allow people to download your patches and addons. As has been brought up in the past by people in the industry, the real hardcore DRM protection is essentially telling your customers that you don't trust them.

[vash23n]

I honestly feel that we don't have real concrete data on how piracy directly affects sales. We all can offer anecdotes from our personal life. When I was in high school the only games I bought were PC games that needed a legit copy to play online without hassal. Anything single player I'd pirate, since I had a limited budget for games and so I went with things that wouldn't be fully functional without buying them. Of course, then you can make an argument that had I been unable to pirate those games I would have instead purchased a few of the single player titles in leu of the multiplayer ones instead. It's a valid point to make. There's also the slippery slope argument that once someone is in the habit of pirating games they won't buy any that have no incentive for the purchase. Once again, I point to the single player PC game of the late 90's. With a keygen/cd hack there was no reason to purchase those unless you were the type who liked having a real hard copy and all the things that come with it (box/manual).

However, I think companies go about their copy protection in the wrong way. It is a guarentee that a game will be cracked and available for anyone who wants it shortly after release (if not before). It has been proven time and time again that you cannot defeat these people. The best you can do is impede them for a little bit, but most of the time this involves measures that can cause issues for your legitimate customer base. There are almost no cases of someone who attemps to pirate something, is defeated by the copy protection, and then buys the game legitimately. So the best measures, in my opinion, is to provide incentive for someone to purchase your product. Use the CD Key to only allow legitimate users to play online, or use it to allow people to download your patches and addons. As has been brought up in the past by people in the industry, the real hardcore DRM protection is essentially telling your customers that you don't trust them.

Great thoughts Popo and I agree with you 100%.

[Dylan]

Exactly. DRM shouldn't hassle the legitimate buyers.

[RCBH928]

I want to clear few things out,
My intentions of this post was to say that a little piracy helps business. Not complete Piracy.

I do not think piracy killed DC. Because if that is your argument, then are you saying that if DC couldn't play backups , Sega would have survived the ps2/gamecube/xbox? The GTA:SA , RE4, Halo, God of War, GT, and Metal Gear?
As far as I know, Sega main reason to fail was that they couldn't move enough systems in time. If anything , piracy was going to help that not work against it.

The other thing is that today pirating is as easy as ever, I can do it in my own home(back in the DC days I had dial-up) but Wii+360 sales are so high. How come?

I do agree that piracy is totally wrong, think of it, if you made a living working in videogames(or anything) and people bought pirated stuff then they are putting you on the street. Some way or the other, its taking your right away, its not stealing exactly but they used something thats not theirs really. I still think that some of it is good in one way or another.

As for the Sonic example, it was just for instance thing. Here is a real life example.
All the people I know got ps2 that are modded, like every one in my country. ALL of them play Winning 11(PES). All of the copies are pirated, and I know damn sure 90% or more will not pay the full price of it on a yearly basis . But you know what Konami got out of it? They got brand recognition. Some people think the ps2 only plays "soccer" game, that is Winning 11. Now everyone knows what Winning 11 is, and hardly any one knows FIFA(EA) even exists.
Those who moved to ps3, chose Winning 11 (original) this time around, because they got brand recognition back in the pirating days.

As for bad games released by studios not making sales, I am just saying thats what happens most of the time, not all of the time. I am pretty sure Okami + Viewtiful Joe did not fail because of piracy(i don't know whats the reason) but if that was the reason then so would have Super Mario Smash and God of War. I do not see those losing!?

[UBERTRON777]

I only pirate old games because a. I want to try out games to see if I like them and b. some games are just too damn expensive to justify a purchase, Panzer Dragoon Saga for example. I make it a rule not to play an emulated game for the sake of beating it.

[t0yrobo]

These consoles are heavily pirated BECAUSE they are so popular, not the other way around.

Not necessarily, the PSX was by far the most popular system pretty much everywhere outside of Europe, the US, and Japan because CDs are really cheap to make, and cartridges aren't. It had more to do with money than anything else.

Wait. What?

This post makes no sense. Please try again.[/quote]

Ok, so the Playstation was the more popular system in it's time. Outside of Europe, the US, and Japan, it was practically the ONLY console because it used CDs instead of cartridges. So in places like Russia, South America, and mainland China the PSX by a massive margin was the most popular console. Not because it had the most or the best games, but because they were easier/cheaper to pirate, which meant that people were able to actually buy games. I don't know so much about previous consoles, but for the PSX, using CDs was a huge factor.

[Limewater]

Ok, so the Playstation was the more popular system in it's time. Outside of Europe, the US, and Japan, it was practically the ONLY console because it used CDs instead of cartridges. So in places like Russia, South America, and mainland China the PSX by a massive margin was the most popular console. Not because it had the most or the best games, but because they were easier/cheaper to pirate, which meant that people were able to actually buy games. i don't know so much about previous consoles, but the PSX using CDs was a huge factor.

Yes, of course the fact that the Playstation used CDs was a big part of why it was so successful. Nobody is arguing that-- it's pretty well accepted. The low cost of CDs meant that games could be produced and sold less expensively. This is true completely apart from the piracy scene.

Sales in Russia, South America, and Mainland China aren't really that significant to the success of the Playstation. You can throw out all Playstations sold in Asia, including Japan, and the Playstation still outsold the Nintendo 64 by more than a 2:1 margin. The same economic situations that mean that people in Russia, South America, and Mainland China turn to piracy are the same economic situations that keep a vast majority of households in those places from having current-gen video game consoles at all.

Games on the Playstation were easier to pirate than those on the N64. But again, legitimate games were also cheaper and easier to produce. And part of the reason PS1 games were pirated so early in the console lifecycle is that it was very, very popular and thus received a lot more attention from those interested in piracy.

But the Playstation is only one system out of several kingmoh mentioned, and it is the ONLY one he mentioned that was uniquely easy to pirate during its generation. He listed the NES, PS1, PS2, and Wii. The NES is not easier to pirate than the SMS. The PS2 is not easier to mod than the XBox, and it's only slightly more difficult/expensive to mod a Gamecube. I don't know about current-gen systems, but both the Wii and XBOX 360 use widely-available media.

But again, a company that sells consoles but no games is a console that loses money on every sale (with only a couple of exceptions).

[t0yrobo]

Yeah I kinda got off on a tangent that didn't have that much to do with the point of the thread .

I do think there's kinda a sweet spot for ease of piracy. It could be total BS, but everything fits together rather nicely.
-PSPs are to easy to pirate games for, everything needed is already there, it just takes some software tinkering.
-The PS2 is just about right. It's easy to play copies on, but it requires special tools that have to be bought online. And retail games can be copied at home just as easily as a regular cd.
-The original Xbox is kinda weird. It's not that hard to mod, but it is intimidating because of a higher potential to screw it up. And one of the best benefits of modding (xbmc) isn't even for games.
-The Gamecube isn't all to hard to mod, but it's slightly different media makes it seem harder than it is, and again needs special hardware to do.
-The Wii is where it's at for piracy this gen. It's really easy to get pirated vc and wiiware games with only a sd card. Retail games take more effort, but still aren't that bad.
-The 360 needs firmware flashing, not using xbl, and dl-dvds for pretty much everything. it's just a pain.

So the PS2 and Wii are big sellers, and it happens that they're the easier system of their gen to play copied games on. I really can't prove any causality, but it is interesting.
The 360 (and the old xbox) are kinda interesting because there's more of a risk/reward type thing happening. You can get all your games for free, but you'll have a hard time playing online. I don't know if you can get xbla games very easily ona modded 360 either, someone else would have to answer that.

[darthmunky]

Yeah, the creators shouldn't care about people pirating their stuff. They shouldn't be making games for the money, they should me doing it to create great games. I don't have any PS1 or Dreamcast games that aren't backups. I also have a modded Xbox and I had a modded Wii with only backups.

I really hope this is some sort of thinly veiled sarcasm...

No, I'm serious. If they're not making games for the love of them, they shouldn't be making them. I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset about people pirating, but that they should at least be happy that people are playing their game.

[vash23n]

I don't pirate games, because I don't have the means, but I do download music off of the internet. I am a musician and people have downloaded my music or burned my cds without paying me for them and it has helped me spread my sound further. How come, when bands are poor it is okay for people to download their music for free because it helps their reputation, but once bands become big and start making big bucks, it is suddenly NOT okay. I would say the fact that these big bands once gave their tunes away for free and they still made it big shows that "piracy" can be helpful. Many people still want the whole package whether it be games or music. Not everyone, but still a lot of people. They want the full CD or Game with the manual and the artwork and whatever. I think piracy has helped a lot of musicians because it has forced them to fight the corporate music stores that bump prices up to $20 (most people buy tracks on iTunes for much cheaper now) and forced them to pay more attention to satisfying the fans. I assume it's the same with games. Maybe if there was more piracy games would not cost nearly as much as they do these days. The last new game I bought was years ago for the Game Cube and it was expensive as SHIT! Over $50 and it was a CD based game. Feel free to correct me (politely as I am just trying to offer another view).

I understand piracy is supposed to rip the creators of the games off, but the gamers have been getting ripped off for years. I also understand it is not the creators fault, but perhaps, like the musicians, the creators will start standing up to the corporate assholes who jack up prices to make a profit... or else creators will just start offering games as downloads so that they can sell them cheaper and get all or most of the money while skipping the middle man like has happened with music and movies.