Dreamcast: Would it been a survivor?

[MrPopo]

1)Dreamcast had no believers in the system as it created multiple consoles.
Truth: People are STILL Sega fans, they were so happy about the Dreamcast on its launch day. Dreamcast had one huge support, the library of the Dreamcast must be one of the higest ratios of great : bad games. Unique and new games like Shenmue and Jet Set Radio. What lack of support?

People are still 3DO fans as well. Doesn't mean the system didn't tank. The issue is there weren't ENOUGH people who were Sega fans AT THE TIME.

2)Dreamcast needed a DVD drive.
Truth: Xbox and Gamecube didn't have a DVD drive. At least you needed the playback kit for the xbox. Both did good enough. Plus at the launched of the Dreamcast, DVD was fairly new. I do not think people bought PS2 just to watch DVD but it was a nice add on. Not to mention ps2 was $100 more than the Dreamcast, thats 50% more in price!

The DVD player, though, was a nice selling factor for the PS2, though. Sony's trying to do the same thing this generation with the PS3 and Blu Ray, but the jump from DVD to Blu Ray is not nearly the same as the jump from VHS to DVD.

3)EA didn't give Dreamcast support.
Truth: So what? There were other great sport titles on the Dreamcast right ? (2k)

Let's picture a Nintendo console that had a bunch of good platformers, but no Mario title. Wouldn't it just be diminished a bit, no matter how good the platformers were? EA is the leader in sports games, and a lot of that comes from the perception of the large brands it owns. Them saying that the Dreamcast is not worth supporting is a major statement. Plus, the people who tend to buy lots of sports games have always struck me as the type to have a fierce brand loyalty to the EA franchises.

4) Bad online speed.
Truth: In 2009, the Wii is selling like crazy and it has one of the worst online features. People hate the Wii for its online system. As far as I know, there is no MIC for the Wii either.

There is a mic, but it's just as lame as the rest of the Wii's online features. And to be fair, on many games the online works fine if you just want to find a random room and play. Where it bogs down is getting your friends list set up for every game. People weren't saying that the Dreamcast's modem-based online sunk the console. However, it wasn't as big of a selling point as Sega wanted it to be due to the deficiencies of having a modem as opposed to an ethernet connection.

5) Playstation 2 is better than the Dreamcast.
Truth : Overall yes it is, but who said we wanted the Dreamcast to be as successful as the ps2? Why do you people compare it to the ps2? There was an xbox and a gamecube too, which during their lifetime of of 5-6 years sold 23 million , double that the Dreamcast sold in 2 years!

Let's look at the timeline. Dreamcast comes out, and Sega starts to recoup a bit of the losses it suffered in public image from the 32x and the Saturn. Then the PS2 hits and quickly dominates the market. People start to buy the PS2 version of multi-platform titles. Plus, the Dreamcast only has one analog stick, which means it cannot do all that the PS2 controller can. So people are spending more of their money on the PS2 games instead of Dreamcast games. I'd guess that Sega was taking a loss on every console sold at the original retail price, to say nothing of how much they were losing per console at the discounted price. But since the software sales are weak they aren't making up the difference. And remember, since Sega had already gone through several years of doing poorly they couldn't afford to stay in the market.

Compare with Microsoft and Nintendo. Microsoft can afford to fund several console generations where they do terribly, so their primary goal is to establish a market presence no matter what it costs, so there's no way they're backing out unless it goes as bad as the Pippin. Nintendo makes a profit on every Gamecube sold, and their first party stuff is as good as ever. So they consistently make a profit even though the PS2 is outselling them 3-1 or more. If you're making money there's no reason to back out.

6)Graphics are weaker than the competition.
Truth : Completely true, but who said you needed the graphics. Wii(non HD) is giving super graphics ps3/360 a hard time, while it is LAST generation graphics. At least the Dreamcast was NOT last generation graphics, it was highly updated hardware. PS2 was weaker than gamecube/xbox , but it sold multiple times their combined units. Snes beat 3do AND Neo Geo , given their graphics are WAAAAY better than snes.

To be fair, there are breakpoints where you have obvious differences. Skies of Arcadia and Grandia II's graphics are not nearly as nice as the graphics in their PS2 contemporaries. Hell, the models tend to look more like PS1 games at times, though the textures are obviously nicer. When you compare the SNES to the Neo Geo you see less obvious differences. You look at Samurai Shodown on the SNES vs. the Neo and a given screenshot doesn't look too different. The difference comes in things like dropped frames, which aren't nearly as noticable for the casual fighting game fan (assuming they're done well). You can clearly see a generational gap between the PS1 and the PS2, and it feels like the Dreamcast straddles a middle ground, which rarely does well for a game.

The Wii is an entirely different case. The Wii first and formost set out to attract non-gamers into giving Nintendo money. As a result the graphics are not nearly as important. Also throw in the fact that graphics are on diminishing returns anyway and the fact that the Wii is far from being a powerhouse doesn't matter as much.

7)Games are not selling
Truth : Dreamcast has a 10+ million users base. Most developers are happy to reach just 1 million in sales. Given that the console stayed alive, there would have been a lot more users of the console meaning more buyers.

It doesn't matter if the Dreamcast has 10 million sold. If few games were making 100k in sales then the system is doomed. I don't have any sales numbers on the top selling Dreamcast games, but it would be interesting to see what they are.

Dumb management. I think the management of Sega made a huge bet that they will be dominant console and will selling hundreds of millions of consoles, and multiples of that in games. I bet they had huge debts that can not be covered, and their $100 million launch campaign proves it. They were in such a huge trouble. Even so, it still does not make sense why did they quit on the system? They already have the manufacturing and everything planned, they already have to pay the debts any way, so why kill something that has a chance of generating even more income for you?

I'll reiterate the point I made earlier. Sega was very likely taking a loss on each console sold. So the longer they kept the Dreamcast alive the more money they were going to lose on the hardware end. Now they obviously want the software to pick up the slack and put them back into the black, but clearly that wasn't occuring.

Now, just because they stop production on the console doesn't mean that devs can't make new games for it. The Neo Geo had releases for many years after SNK stopped making AES systems. However, as a developer you are faced with the following reality: there are only 10 million consoles (or so) that exist, period. Sega does not make any more. That is a very limited market. So the devs didn't see it being worth their development time and money to produce any more games for such a limited market, especially considering that the existing software wasn't doing too well anyways.

[LoneCynic]

Um, the Dreamcast version of Grandia II looked and played much better than the glitch ridden, blurry mess that was the PS2 version. Sonic Adventure on the Gamecube was graphically enhanced, but it too was blurry compared to the sharper, crisper Dreamcast original. Mr. Popo, before you jump to the conclusion that the Dreamcast was between the PS1 and PS2 in graphic capability because it came out between the two consoles, I suggest the following:

Use an HDTV, hook up a Dreamcast with VGA (Its best possible connection) and a PS2 with Component cables (its best possible connection), and try some of those multi-platform games again and see which versions performed better. Did you know that the Dreamcast had twice a much on board RAM for games than the PS2? It was able to do a few things that the PS2 simply wasn't capable of, period.

I'm not arguing that the system failed, or numbers or anything of the sort. It's the past and over and done with, but some of the assumptions you're making might prove to be entirely incorrect under certain setup circumstances.

Any SHMUP fans want to discuss which versions of any of that genre released on both platforms looks crisper and plays better? I think the polling data might astound you.

[RCBH928]

First I just want to say I am not a fanboy trying to argue that the Dreamcast was the best console ever. Actually I never owned,played a Dreamcast except for 9 months ago. I only completed like 2 or 3 games. Before that I have only seen a Dreamcast back in like 99 or 2000 when it really first came out, and never again in between. Just to be clear.

I am only trying to figure out what happened to this mystifying console.

MrPopo your points are taken well. I do agree to some points. For one, Yes the graphics look like Highly enhanced ps1/N64 graphics but very far from ps2/gamecube graphics(Not true for SoulCalibur, that game's graphics are soo good it looks like its running on another console!) .

But I also disagree. If the 360 breaks every few months, and the ps3 had like the highest launch price ever with really bad launch titles, could make it why can't the Dreamcast make it. One thing I want to know is, did pirating kill the Dreamcast?

a bit out of topic. I would really like to experience anything Dreamcast online. Can I hook it up and play anything or do anything with it?

[MrPopo]

Um, the Dreamcast version of Grandia II looked and played much better than the glitch ridden, blurry mess that was the PS2 version.

I can't speak for the quality of a port job. And it sounds like Grandia II got a bad port job.

Sonic Adventure on the Gamecube was graphically enhanced, but it too was blurry compared to the sharper, crisper Dreamcast original.

I cover this below. The test is unfair if you're comparing component vs. VGA on a modern TV.

Mr. Popo, before you jump to the conclusion that the Dreamcast was between the PS1 and PS2 in graphic capability because it came out between the two consoles

I wasn't saying the Dreamcast was capable of only putting out graphics between the two systems, I was saying that people were making games that looked like they were between the two generations. Hell, I personally feel that the graphics in FFIX look better than the graphics in Grandia II, sharpness of the VGA connection nonwithstanding.

Use an HDTV, hook up a Dreamcast with VGA (Its best possible connection) and a PS2 with Component cables (its best possible connection), and try some of those multi-platform games again and see which versions performed better. Did you know that the Dreamcast had twice a much on board RAM for games than the PS2? It was able to do a few things that the PS2 simply wasn't capable of, period.

I never got around to looking at the specific specs. I'm just going by the visual comparisons I've made between my Dreamcast games and my PS2 games. And I personally don't agree with your testing method. A good testing method would be to hook up both consoles through composite. That gives you a comparison of how each system looks on equal footing. You can then add the note that the Dreamcast can pull ahead if you use the VGA cable. Also, HDTVs tend to process component connections and VGA connections differently, which affects the results of your test. But keep in mind that back in the day the VGA connection really only let you hook up the Dreamcast to a monitor, which the average consumer wasn't about to do. It doesn't matter how good the VGA is if no one is using it.

Any SHMUP fans want to discuss which versions of any of that genre released on both platforms looks crisper and plays better? I think the polling data might astound you.

I won't argue this point. However, that is a incredibly niche genre, so in the bigger picture of which console looks better than the other it falls through the cracks.

But I also disagree. If the 360 breaks every few months, and the ps3 had like the highest launch price ever with really bad launch titles, could make it why can't the Dreamcast make it. One thing I want to know is, did pirating kill the Dreamcast?

I thought I covered this, but let me reiterate. Sega was soley in the gaming business, and was hemorrhaging money on the Dreamcast hardware and not making it up in the software. The 360 is making up the money it loses on the hardware with the software. The PS3 is owned by Sony who can afford to take losses due to being a large diversified company. Maintaining a strong front through this generation, even if it ends up being a completely losing generation, leaves them with a better brand image for the PS4. Remember that Sega aborted both the Saturn and the Dreamcast. The difference was that after two losing generations Sega couldn't afford to launch another console.

[Original_Name]

The beautiful thing about the Dreamcast is that it was never meant to survive, but it nearly did anyway. Over-corporatization is what destroyed the Sega Saturn in America. The refusal to support development/US ports of gamer-requested titles such as Grandia, Radiant Silvergun, Symphony of the Night, Princess Crown, Street Fighter Alpha 3, Lunar: Silver Star & Eternal Blue, Sakura Taisen, Terra Phantastica, Thunder Force V, Dragon Force 2, Shining Force III: ep. 2 & 3, et cetera as well as hopelessly limited print-runs of Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining Force III, Burning Rangers, Guardian Heroes, and Dragon Force in favor of trashier, more "marketable" titles such as Bug!, Sonic R, Sonic 3D Blast, and the awful sports titles (with occasional gems such as NiGHTS, Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, and Virtual ON) while Bernie Stolar boasted to American gamers that the Saturn was the system for "hardcore gamers!" was a terrible marketing ploy for a terrible, though entirely avoidable, dark period for the company.

I honestly don't believe that anyone at Sega truly believed that the Dreamcast would actually save them in the hardware business; it was to save the essence of Sega. It was to prove that Sega could, in fact, make a great system, and that everyone should be ashamed for have ever doubting them; it was both a love letter and a giant "FUCK YOU!" at the same time. So they fix everything that's wrong with the company: 1.) Make a new system with EASY hardware to develop for, 2.) Fire that fucking moron Bernie Stolar (who STILL managed to damage the Dreamcast by pissing off Namco just before they released Soul Calibur, meaning that they decided to port the high-selling Tekken Tag Tournament to the PlayStation 2 instead of the Dreamcast) 3.) Stop allowing terrible corporate marketing decisions decide what was good or not good for consumers and simply focus on putting out as many great games as possible 4.) Taking huge risks instead of playing it "smart" with the huge push towards online and heavy marketing of titles such as Shenmue and Seaman.

The fact that the Dreamcast even existed, AND was executed the way it was makes Sega my all-time favorite video game-related company. They didn't HAVE to put the Dreamcast out; they could have just called it quits with the Saturn instead of blowing all the rest of their money on the Dreamcast. It wasn't meant to work; it was pure heart and soul with a sense of quality and innovation which said "Thank you" to anyone who had believed in Sega to any extent and "Fuck you!" to those who were against them - Sony, EA, and anyone who was blindly purchasing a PlayStation 2, expecting big-time corporate Sony to somehow ever match what Sega was doing with the Dreamcast with superficial things such as graphics, brand-loyalty, and DVD playback. The fact that the Dreamcast almost actually pulled off saving the company is the incredible thing. The quality and innovative spirit of the games was enough to merit sales large enough to support any company that wasn't drowning in debt like Sega was at the time, even with the looming shadow (and mediocre arrival) of the PlayStation 2.

Still, it wasn't enough, so with the Dreamcast doing poorly in Japan due primarily to the lack of DVD compatability (sadly enough) and having middling sales in America and Europe, Peter Moore was left with the decision to either A.) Risk the entire existence of the company and bank Sega's future on the likes of Shenmue II, Virtua Fighter 4, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Super Monkey Ball, Rez, Space Channel 5: Part 2, Jet Set Radio Future, GunValkyrie, ToeJam & Earl III, Shinobi, and The House of the Dead III, (as well as the strong possibility of Air NiGHTS, Thunder Force VI, and a Shining Force title) or to simply cut the company's losses and port those high-quality titles to consoles with assured user bases and deeper pockets such as the PlayStation 2, Xbox, and Gamecube allowing Sega to actually get some money and maybe allow for a future for the company. So they went with the latter, and while many were let down by the Dreamcast's official demise, no one was disappointed by Virtua Fighter 4, Panzer Dragoon Orta, or Super Monkey Ball and crew. So perhaps the company did stand a snowball's chance in the future. Then CSK Holdings Company stabbed the company in the back and sold them to the carnivorous Sammy, whom fired most of the company's employees and replaced them with talentless hacks, and restricted the few remaining employees to monotonously produce the same low-budget rehashes year after year, whilst giving no marketing whatsoever to the few quality titles which were permitted every few years such as Yakuza and Valkyria Chronicles. (Virtua Fighter 5 got decent marketing at least. That was nice).

To answer your question though, I think there was about a 25% chance of the Dreamcast surviving another year, so exiting hardware was the "wise" choice at the time (how could they have known what CSK and Sammy had in store for them?). It's a shame we didn't get to see that last great push with Virtua Fighter 4, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Super Monkey Ball, a higher-quality version of Sonic Shuffle with tons more mini-games and online capabilities, and everything; but the fact that we got what we did is enough to make me praise the Sega of old for their incredible contibutions to gaming in that short time period, and make me weep for those few old employees who remain inside the hideous Sega-Sammy monstrosity.

[LoneCynic]

Mr. Popo, you've explained your position more clearly to me. It is evident that I misunderstood your thinking on a couple of key points, and that our opinions on this subject were more closely alligned than I at first realized. Although, I will say this, as it is the only point we disagree on. When it comes to connections, I do comparisons with the best possible for each console.

A composite-composite connection might be useful for comparison on an SDTV that only has that input, but it is somewhat akin to taking the kids out to little league baseball, and not keeping score. Jimmy can run faster, but Danny can swing harder. Let's put ankle weights on Jimmy, and give Danny a whiffle bat. Now they'll be even, but is it a fair comparison of their full potentials?

Same thing, Dreamcast can use VGA, but not component, and PS2 can use component, but not VGA. (This statement is true, to the best of my knowledge). If they could both use one connection or the other, I'd make comparison off that, which is a nod to your point. However they can't, and using composite just cripples both of them too much to appreciate one or the other's strengths.

That's my only counter point at this juncture, as I more or less conceded the rest of the points to your previous response.

[RyaNtheSlayA]

I agree on a lot of points that Original_Name makes. Sega had a giant pit in there wallet and through 1993 or so to 2001. So I think it's fair to say that they were doing the Dreamcast to at least hold their dignity if not let the company last a little longer.

Can we all agree though that the Dreamcast, no matter how long it could have lasted, was and still is one of the greatest systems of all time?

Maybe I'm just biased with Sega, I feel the Genesis, Saturn, and Dreamcast are all filled with awesome and the best consoles of all time.l

Also Bernie Stolar is an assface, and should burn in video game hell.

[RCBH928]

I really have a hard time believing that Sega made a console just to show they can do it and in return have many employees fired and put huge hole in the company's pocket. That $100 million campaign(not fixed for inflation) is so damn huge, I do not think they were trying to show us what they can do out of arrogance. Specially that they made a sport's brand(2k) just for them.

What really amazes me is the amount of support they had from 3rd party developers(you can't argue there were super games) and the amount of innovation put by Sega into this console in such a small time. Like in 2 years time they had:
-RE: Code Veronica -Rayman -Soul Caliber -Shenmue -2 Sonics -Jet Grind Radio -Phantasy Star -2K SERIES -Skies of Arcadia -Power Stone -Virtua Fighter -Ecco -Seaman -A ton of Fighters -Legacy of Kain -Grandia 2

all that in just 2 years for a console selling less than 10 million? That is pretty amazing don't you think? These are only the games that extra shine on the Dreamcast, other solid titles like RE2, MDK, UFC and more exist. I do not think the 360 had such a huge support in its first two years.

A sad thing I heard was that Sega was giving Dreamcasts just to sign up for their ISP(Seganet I think) , yet still no one took the offer. How sad is that?

[MrPopo]

Sega really tarnished their brand with the 32x and the Saturn. Combine that with the total runaway success of the PS1 and people decided they were going to hold out for the PS2 instead of taking a chance on the Dreamcast. Hell, I consoled my brother to get a PS2 instead of a Dreamcast because Sega had a history of not supporting their hardware (he got one anyway since the money was burning a hole in his pocket).

[ThunderPrince]

I bet the DC had held on a bit longer I think it would have lasted another year.