POLL: Bootlegs / Reproductions: What is allowed

[BoneSnapDeez]

^ I think the perspective of most members here differs from yours as most of us here don't collect rare carts.

This seems to be a rare game/Neo Geo issue and most folks here just aren't into that stuff anyway.

[dsheinem]

I think a lot of folks see cheap repros of pricey games as a threat to their own costly investment in an original, and thus have some disdain for them in that regard.

Really simplistic view. It's the whole omelette, not just an egg.

It's having to take such care to buy pricier original games. Ebay is almost all but out of question (good luck getting a seller to open up a cart). Amazon is definitely out of the question with their stock photos. We'd hope the forums would be a safe haven, but apparently not. This makes it increasingly more difficult to find them.

How about selling them - the opposite, people already assume it might be a fake, so now you have to go to more work to sell it and deal with tirekickers.

If there was no chance of confusing it with an original - to me, there is no problem, but when it isn't clearly distinguishable, the reality is even those of us who pay particular attention are going to get fooled and it may not come back to us until we go to sell it and get labeled a scammer trying to pass it off, or maybe when we're playing it and the thing doesn't load up due to a crap solder job or cheap rom.

Etc, etc. After all these pages I haven't seen a legitimate reason to be bootlegging games released in this country other than, "it's cheaper." Can anyone do better than that? Guarantee me it can't be mistaken as original down the line and i'll gladly pipe down. Until then, this is an issue and honestly, a bit of an embarrassment that we as a community would support it.

I have a much more complex view on the issue, and have stated thus across this thread and other places as you well know.

I do think some people are upset about repros because it hurts the value of their investment, and "some disdain" about repros is for that effect.

And I strongly disagree that our community, which has long held to a policy of honesty about listings and fairness in dealings, is doing anything "embarrassing" by suggesting through poll results that we don't need a rule about repros. As has been said already, the world has changed and "tire-kicking" is unfortunately good policy going forward anywhere and everywhere that carts are bought and sold. No policy here would change that, nor would it create any sense that RB is a safe-haven from certain kinds of carts. As is the case with every other kind of deal here, the feedback system would clue us in to people passing off fake games as real and mods could remove repeat offenders (especially if they didn't provide compensation).

tldr: Our current rules and feedback system work as they should to stop people from misrepresenting wares, repros will exist regardless of what we do here, and all that really needs to be done is a statement educating people to be careful

[mjmjr25]

Well, I disagree. I'm not claiming the majority opinion (i'm surprised i'm not) I clearly see where many people stand. However, to be clear - as evidenced by this thread, there are quite a few others who share my opinion and i've been asked by some of those folks to keep the topic active and discussed. Granted, many of those who think this is an issue are into the Neo Geo, but certainly SNES, NES and GEN/MD are becoming as bootlegged as the NEO and many of those folks are seeing it become a problem as well. The more tolerance for bootlegs shown now, the more financial incentive, the more the proliferation will spread to other genres.

We've seen with Sapphire boots that the artwork, manual, and spine cards can be duplicated to near factory quality. SCD, DC, SAT, etc are just around the corner. No doubt in my mind.

[AppleQueso]

I don't give a crap about my 'investment' I just don't want to see people unwittingly winding up with bootleg carts when they thought they were buying real ones.

[dsheinem]

I don't give a crap about my 'investment' I just don't want to see people unwittingly winding up with bootleg carts when they thought they were buying real ones.

and no new rule would increase or decrease the likelihood of that happening

scammers gonna scam, honest sellers will be honest

[mjmjr25]

tldr: Our current rules and feedback system work as they should to stop people from misrepresenting wares, repros will exist regardless of what we do here, and all that really needs to be done is a statement educating people to be careful

Well, this is of course your opinion. I don't share it. Just because it is labeled correctly here doesn't mean it won't be passed off as something else somewhere else. I don't see logic in accepting it as something that simply "is" - what a defeatist attitude. We can do our part saying it isn't something that "is" on this forum. If someone doesn't have a problem with it at all, that I can understand. The idea that we can't control the whole thing so we should just deal with it is crazy to me. Effecting change isn't easy, giving up is.

Or, let's try this - since the gun analogy has been used - let's look at Target and Walmart.

Gun violence is a problem. Wal-Mart recognizes it is a problem, but they only sell guns to people who meet the requirements - it isn't their fault if a legal gun gets sold off to someone who can't legally own one. Target doesn't sell guns - they certainly could, and they would make money, but their philosophy is to not be involved on any level. I'd like us to emulate Target and not Wal-Mart when it comes to bootlegs of games released in this region.

[dsheinem]

tldr: Our current rules and feedback system work as they should to stop people from misrepresenting wares, repros will exist regardless of what we do here, and all that really needs to be done is a statement educating people to be careful

Well, this is of course your opinion. I don't share it. Just because it is labeled correctly here doesn't mean it won't be passed off as something else somewhere else. I don't see logic in accepting it as something that simply "is" - what a defeatist attitude. We can do our part saying it isn't something that "is" on this forum. If someone doesn't have a problem with it at all, that I can understand. The idea that we can't control the whole thing so we should just deal with it is crazy to me. Effecting change isn't easy, giving up is.

Or, let's try this - since the gun analogy has been used - let's look at Target and Walmart.

Gun violence is a problem. Wal-Mart recognizes it is a problem, but they only sell guns to people who meet the requirements - it isn't their fault if a legal gun gets sold off to someone who can't legally own one. Target doesn't sell guns - they certainly could, and they would make money, but their philosophy is to not be involved on any level. I'd like us to emulate Target and not Wal-Mart when it comes to bootlegs of games released in this region.

Even at a moral level, I just don't see this as a stance that we can justifiably take. I mean, given all the talk of and celebration across the forum of emulation and torrenting, discussion and selling of system mods that allow backups, of excitement and sales of some kinds of repros/bootlegs, etc. - there's a lot of "grey areas" that we are already pretty cool with on the site as a whole. In fact, I'd say that the way that we've historically handled those grey areas is one of the strengths of this forum.

To connect to your analogy, Target has taken a stance of "not wanting to be associated with gun violence" and can substantiate their claim with a zero tolerance policy. If they just stopped selling "fully automated assault rifles" because they were the most dangerous kind according to some folks, they couldn't really still claim the same moral high ground.

And where you see defeatism I see realism.

[bryan_65]

We've seen with Sapphire boots that the artwork, manual, and spine cards can be duplicated to near factory quality. SCD, DC, SAT, etc are just around the corner. No doubt in my mind.

I am surprised this has not happened yet, how much are the tools needed to press discs anyway? Eventually some one will say the cost justifies the means.

I know the Sapphire disc was a pressed disc with the ''care 4 data'' or what ever it was, but was there any other disc known to be pressed. As in other games also.

Bootlegs

[mjmjr25]

I just see the one item (bootlegs of games released in this region, to look identical to the original) as completely a different level, or deepr shade of grey (let's call it black), to translated repros in diff. region shell, multi-carts, flash carts, homebrews, etc. There is a significant difference - one of these can be passed off as original, the rest can not.

If Nintendo, capcom, sega, xseed, or any other entity wants to protect their intellectual property - that's on them and not my (or our) concern at all.

[Hobie-wan]

I am surprised this has not happened yet, how much are the tools needed to press discs anyway? Eventually some one will say the cost justifies the means.

I know the Sapphire disc was a pressed disc with the ''care 4 data'' or what ever it was, but was there any other disc known to be pressed. As in other games also.

There are PS1 discs that are pressed as opposed to just being CDRs. I bought what I thought was a legit older copy of Photoshop a month ago that was a pressed disc and they went to the trouble of emulating the weird Adobe packaging. There are tons of bootleg anime soundtracks and DVDs out there. Saturn and DC discs have qualities that have kept them from being bootlegged and the PS1 ones were generally possible just because there were so many modchips out there.