Let's have a western animation thread

[flamepanther]

I agree with your point but...Really, Super Friends? That's the best comparison you have to work with? Super Friends was awful even back then. Very poor animation. And just pure cheese dialog.

Exactly how recently have you actually watched the old TMNT?

And heck, even Bruce Timm and his staff for JLU have a fond reverence for Super Friends. It was the same way for the creative staff of TMNT 2k3. Between all the subtle homage that sneaks into the show, and the Murakami Wolf turtles' portrayal in Turtles Forever, its evident both how much they love the old show, and also how painfully bad they knew it could get.

[BurningDoom]

I agree with your point but...Really, Super Friends? That's the best comparison you have to work with? Super Friends was awful even back then. Very poor animation. And just pure cheese dialog.

Exactly how recently have you actually watched the old TMNT? And heck, even Bruce Timm and his staff for JLU have a fond reverence for Super Friends.

TMNT is not a masterpiece, by any means. But it still beats out Super Friends. Come on, Wendy & Marvin and their stupid dog? Aquaman and Superman constantly talking out loud to themselves. All the "Gee Golly Whiz" crap in the dialog. This was the mid 70s to mid 80s that Super Friends was airing. Not the 50s or 60s. There was a lot of GREAT cartoons airing around the cheaply put together Super Friends at that time.

[flamepanther]

TMNT is not a masterpiece, by any means. But it still beats out Super Friends. Come on, Wendy & Marvin and their stupid dog? Aquaman and Superman constantly talking out loud to themselves. All the "Gee Golly Whiz" crap in the dialog. This was the mid 70s to mid 80s that Super Friends was airing. Not the 50s or 60s. There was a lot of GREAT cartoons airing around the cheaply put together Super Friends at that time.

But it was popular, kids loved it, and we still remember it today. There were better shows on than TMNT as well, but TMNT hit that magic chord with the public psyche that makes us remember it over better shows (collectively, at least.) So did super friends.

In any case, I couldn't think of any other instance of an old cartoon and a reboot of the same franchise where:
-Both are based on the same non-animated source material;
-The older cartoon was both deeply loved and unabashedly bad;
-The creators of the new show were fans of the old but knew they could do better, AND;
-The new show is broadly accepted to be better than the original in every considerable way.

That's what I needed in an analogy, and I can't think of anything that fits all of these requirements any better. I considered He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, but I've met far too many people who somehow consider the older cartoon better, and most aren't aware it had source material older than the first cartoon.

[CFFJR]

-The new show is broadly accepted to be better than the original in every considerable way.

I've found that most Turtles fans are REALLY pissy about that one.

[flamepanther]

-The new show is broadly accepted to be better than the original in every considerable way.

I've found that most Turtles fans are REALLY pissy about that one.

That can be true in completely different ways, depending on what you mean, too.

[CFFJR]

Its been my experience that diehard fans of the 80s show despise the newer one, and absolutely will not concede that any one aspect of it, no matter how small, might be better than the original.

Of course, you're right that it goes both ways. I've also seen fans of the newer show who dismiss the old one as obsolete with nothing to offer at all.

I see the former a hell of a lot more than the latter though.

Its a very divided fanbase to be honest, and that annoys me quite a bit. As someone who adored the 80s show when it was hot back in the day, I find the new one to be unquestionably better, but that doesn't mean the old one was bad.

[flamepanther]

Its been my experience that diehard fans of the 80s show despise the newer one, and absolutely will not concede that any one aspect of it, no matter how small, might be better than the original.

Of course, you're right that it goes both ways. I've also seen fans of the newer show who dismiss the old one as obsolete with nothing to offer at all.

I see the former a hell of a lot more than the latter though.

Its a very divided fanbase to be honest, and that annoys me quite a bit. As someone who adored the 80s show when it was hot back in the day, I find the new one to be unquestionably better, but that doesn't mean the old one was bad.

I think the old cartoon qualifies as bad-good.

But yeah, that's one type of "Turtles fan"... Then there are the more hardcore Turtles fans who are fans of TMNT in general--the ones who might actually know or care who Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird are. Those Turtles fans are the real ones, IMO, rather than just fans of the one show. In my experience, they usually like the old cartoon for what it is, but accept the new one as vastly superior. I guess it's a pretty small core group though, and we do get pissy that what most people think of as the "original Turtles" aren't the originals at all.

My personal act of heresy is holding the opinion that the storytelling in the 2k3 show is actually better than the source comics

[CFFJR]

I think the old cartoon qualifies as bad-good.

But yeah, that's one type of "Turtles fan"... Then there are the more hardcore Turtles fans who are fans of TMNT in general--the ones who might actually know or care who Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird are. Those Turtles fans are the real ones, IMO, rather than just fans of the one show. In my experience, they usually like the old cartoon for what it is, but accept the new one as vastly superior. I guess it's a pretty small core group though, and we do get pissy that what most people think of as the "original Turtles" aren't the originals at all.

My personal act of heresy is holding the opinion that the storytelling in the 2k3 show is actually better than the source comics

Hey, I'm one of those fans too, heh.

I wish more people could accept the franchise as a whole rather than being so finicky about it. Every part of it has good and bad points (Well, the live action show on Fox years ago was pretty freaking bad...). Hell, I liked the Archie comics too, despite being so different from the original Mirage books. They weren't bad at all.

You know what I'm worried about though? Where its going to go now that Laird has sold off the rights to Nickelodeon.

[flamepanther]

Hey, I'm one of those fans too, heh.

Hey, that's awesome!

I wish more people could accept the franchise as a whole rather than being so finicky about it. Every part of it has good and bad points (Well, the live action show on Fox years ago was pretty freaking bad...). Hell, I liked the Archie comics too, despite being so different from the original Mirage books. They weren't bad at all.

Even Next Mutation has a few good points. Where else can you see the Turtles battle Scott McNeil?

You know what I'm worried about though? Where its going to go now that Laird has sold off the rights to Nickelodeon.

I'm not so worried. Nickelodeon makes some really high quality shows, and Viacom must have wanted to do something pretty badly with the brand to pay so much money for it. I don't imagine they'll do anything worse with it than the '87 series was, and worst case scenario it almost can't be worse than Next Mutation or the anime OVAs--so even if it's bad it's probably been worse already.

[jfrost]

I agree with your point but...Really, Super Friends? That's the best comparison you have to work with? Super Friends was awful even back then. Very poor animation. And just pure cheese dialog.

I used to watch Super Friends on Cartoon Network 10 or so years ago. It was awesome because CN poked so much fun at the poor animation and stories: