Private University or Trade school?

[Blu]

Right, but you haven't grown up as someone who was either non-white

It's 2014. Get the fuck out with that shit.

Explain this to me. Why did it cost me $3500 a class in college.. but I had TWO black people in my class tell me they were getting PAID to go to college and I quote " because we are a minority"

So you're telling just because they are a couple shades darker than me.. They are from America... their parents are from here... Their grandparents are from here... They automatically " deserve" more?

Right, because we live in a post-racial society because our president is black? You're making an exception the rule, which is a very narrow point of view. ForlornDrifter is also making an exception the rule in painting with a broad brush the experiences of his classmates and how much better they have it when the reality might be a constant struggle.

Here's a fantastic resource to consider:

http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html - Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.

Ack: The students that I've seen who come from fairly privileged backgrounds have either a really career driven focus, but can't connect the work as a passion. They don't see how they can really change the culture, work to create a better world, etc. They're getting a fascinating liberal arts education but have zero drive in wanting to engage in it. The ones that have struggled really seek to benefit themselves, how they want to change their circumstances.

TL;DR: I'd say I see the exact opposite. I see privileged students sometimes viewing college as a 4 year party that might eventually end in employment. I also see hardworking students work towards passions they have and how it shows up in their work.

[jp1]

MrPoPo, I don't think it is people's intellect that is being questioned. Surely there are some people who wouldn't fair well academically in college. Some of them might not be very book smart, some might not be wise, some might not be either...but lumping a large group of people into "dumb" or "not college material in the first place." is what puts a bad taste in my mouth.

I know you have a blunt way of putting things and I'm assuming (hoping) some of it is tongue in cheek. It is just the way it comes across. I find it hard to believe you are as strictly hung up on those beliefs as you are implying, given the generous nature of your charity contributions.

Maybe I'm wrong...but I think your tiny grinch heart beats.

[Forlorn Drifter]

ForlornDrifter is also making an exception the rule in painting with a broad brush the experiences of his classmates and how much better they have it when the reality might be a constant struggle.

I might believe any of these figures or stats or arguments if I ever, ever saw it for myself. But I don't, and I'm not changing my opinion. I just get told, anytime anything comes up, that I'm a white male and I should shut up because I have it easy. I don't. And it pisses me off to no end, because I see all this people I'm constantly told have it underprivileged get everything they want. I know a guy who grew up without a mother and had a brother constantly in and out of jail. He had to fast track his last year of highschool because his Dad died. I feel for the guy, but when I hear people talk as though he has it hard now, almost a year later, I laugh my ass off. He has a job making 125K a year right out of highschool. And when he was still in school, he got everything he wanted anyways. He got the girls, he got the cars, he was popular, he partied all the time. I understand his situation wasn't easy, but he did damn well for himself the whole time. And he's a complete dumbass, so if he can do it, anybody can.

[dsheinem]

demographics research > personal anecdotes when debating topics like the relationships between race & wealth, education & income, etc.

[Ack]

Right, because we live in a post-racial society because our president is black? You're making an exception the rule, which is a very narrow point of view. ForlornDrifter is also making an exception the rule in painting with a broad brush the experiences of his classmates and how much better they have it when the reality might be a constant struggle.

Here's a fantastic resource to consider:

http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html - Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.

Ack: The students that I've seen who come from fairly privileged backgrounds have either a really career driven focus, but can't connect the work as a passion. They don't see how they can really change the culture, work to create a better world, etc. They're getting a fascinating liberal arts education but have zero drive in wanting to engage in it. The ones that have struggled really seek to benefit themselves, how they want to change their circumstances.

TL;DR: I'd say I see the exact opposite. I see privileged students sometimes viewing college as a 4 year party that might eventually end in employment. I also see hardworking students work towards passions they have and how it shows up in their work.

That's actually closer in line to what I expected, I just don't think I worded my thoughts correctly.

I think Forlorn' and Js' experiences bring up two very different but also important considerations regarding the topic:

First, with our focus on ensuring traditionally underprivileged groups attain "success," what happens when they do but those stereotyped to succeed(in this case, white males) don't, or have no interest in the traditional(monetary) definition of success? In a society that focuses on the image of the straight white male going to college, earning lots of money, and dominating society, what do we do when that stereotype doesn't play out or such individuals suffer from the same lack of resources and materials that other, more traditionally under-privileged groups do? How do we differ in our response to underprivileged "white trash," so to speak?

And second, how do you stave off the potential for growing resentment when individuals generally considered privileged interact with traditionally under-privileged who have benefited from some form of welfare, particularly those who are quick to cite that welfare and tout their shifting circumstances as a result?

demographics research > personal anecdotes when debating topics like the relationships between race & wealth, education & income, etc.

But let's face it, personal experience will shape through what lens we view any research or statistics on this topic. Even if Forlorn were able to provide those kinds of statistics, his interpretation of it would be influenced by his experience.

[MrPopo]

MrPoPo, I don't think it is people's intellect that is being questioned. Surely there are some people who wouldn't fair well academically in college. Some of them might not be very book smart, some might not be wise, some might not be either...but lumping a large group of people into "dumb" or "not college material in the first place." is what puts a bad taste in my mouth.

I actually was using the best word I know of for "people who don't take the time to think things through even at a cursory level". Like Ack said, there's lots of intelligent people who are still dumb.

I know you have a blunt way of putting things and I'm assuming (hoping) some of it is tongue in cheek. It is just the way it comes across. I find it hard to believe you are as strictly hung up on those beliefs as you are implying, given the generous nature of your charity contributions.

My charity contributions go towards Child's Play, which is more of "hey, let's make the hospital not so scary for kids" thing. Social safety net stuff is a whole different story, and it gets complicated when people who are failing to succeed in society (where success is at minimum defined as being able to feed, clothe, and shelter oneself) start to have kids. There isn't currently a way to let the parents fail while setting up the kids to be able to succeed or not on their own merits.

[flex wood]

Likely $15k in debt with an unknown interest rate and a high chance of having a successful position afterward? Sounds a lot better than what it took for my master's degree, which was just over $30k for two years with a 6.8% interest rate, since I had little means of earning an income while in school. I just hope you don't have to wait for two more years after to find a job like I did! I'll pay off this debt eventually, but it's taking a while.

I swear I responded to this but I don't see the post anywhere... Maybe I put it in a different thread?

But yea my interest rate is variable at 3.2% and has only gone down in the past 8 years and can't raise more than 3% in a year. I have to make quarterly interest payments while in school but that's only $60 then for my first year or two after college I have to make monthly interest payments and if the rate stays the same I'll only be required to pay less than $20 a month, but I'll be paying more than that for sure.

The other thing I realized about being older is that I have connections at places like RBC banking and Target Corp and many other places that I wouldn't have if I went to school right after high school. I can use these connections to help me get jobs there if needed. Not that I would really want to work in either of those places but I would jump at the chance just to get my foot in the door and more experience in the field to open more doors for myself in the future.

[Ack]

Likely $15k in debt with an unknown interest rate and a high chance of having a successful position afterward? Sounds a lot better than what it took for my master's degree, which was just over $30k for two years with a 6.8% interest rate, since I had little means of earning an income while in school. I just hope you don't have to wait for two more years after to find a job like I did! I'll pay off this debt eventually, but it's taking a while.

I swear I responded to this but I don't see the post anywhere... Maybe I put it in a different thread?

But yea my interest rate is variable at 3.2% and has only gone down in the past 8 years and can't raise more than 3% in a year. I have to make quarterly interest payments while in school but that's only $60 then for my first year or two after college I have to make monthly interest payments and if the rate stays the same I'll only be required to pay less than $20 a month, but I'll be paying more than that for sure.

The other thing I realized about being older is that I have connections at places like RBC banking and Target Corp and many other places that I wouldn't have if I went to school right after high school. I can use these connections to help me get jobs there if needed. Not that I would really want to work in either of those places but I would jump at the chance just to get my foot in the door and more experience in the field to open more doors for myself in the future.

Well, barring the fact I don't know too much about the IT industry but am pretty sure it's one that will continue to expand...yeah, I'd say you got a good deal.

[ZeroAX]

You know with the US wasting so much money on education that sucks (USA student rankings compared to students from other countries) I don't understand why you don't try to copy ideas from other countries (say scandinavian countries) that are both doing better than you in school, AND giving equal opportunities to everyone?

[Frag Mortuus]

so many discussions going on in this one thread.....