World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[Sarge]

You are not a victim. You are a member of the single most powerful group in the United States complaining about not being able to discriminate against one of the most marginalized groups in existence.

Size of groups is immaterial to the discussion. We have a case of conflicting rights. It is up to society to resolve that conflict.

As long as someone thinks that gay people doing something so inherent to basic human decency as loving and forming relationships is sinful and something "to atone for" they are everything but respectful.

I can disapprove of a lot of things and still be respectful of that person as a human being. I do not appreciate your tone, or your accusation.

And arguing that people should be refused service based on their sexuality is also as denigrating as it gets, really.

I won't repeat my distinction. I have not, at a single point, argued that people should be refused service solely based on their sexuality.

I don't feel pity for you, any more than I feel pity for anyone else, including myself, for what my religion considers sin. I believe we are all fallen creatures. I do pray for everyone, believer or non-believer, gay or straight. I believe that there will be gays in heaven, for what it's worth, as there is nothing that the blood of Christ cannot atone for.

This line, right here, is the incredibly condescending thing that many devoutly religious people do that rubs the rest of us the wrong way. If you want to celebrate God's glory or self flagellate because of our own perceived failings go right ahead. That's part of your personal religion and I welcome you to engage in it. If you want to get a group of like minded people together to engage in the same activities even better; you're making connections with the people around you.

But the second you start including the rest of us in that is where I get mad. You judge us as a sinner based on criteria we never agreed to. I don't care that you don't spend your time condemning us for it and are praying and hoping we get better, it's still incredibly offensive of you.

Note: I am not saying when you hear your friend's kid has cancer and you tell him "I'll pray for her" is bad. Every reasonable person will know it's your way of saying very strongly "I hope she gets better".

I will ask this: why should you care if I feel you, or anyone else, is a sinner? You believe that I am wrong, quite possibly bigoted and homophobic, based on criteria that I haven't agreed to. You are engaging in the same sort of character judgments that I am, based on whatever your overriding ideology is. Whether its roots are secular or religious do not give automatic superiority over the other. I simply follow the teachings of Jesus versus other philosophers.

I am called to love everyone. And while I have my failings at times, I really do try to. To try to understand others, to love others, despite my disagreement with what they believe, is what I must do. The only way I can truly do this is to understand that I am no better, that I am also an imperfect sinner. I'm sorry that offends you, but I assure you, I believe what I believe from a position of love, not judgment. I have no desire to interfere with a person's sexual preference, and never have.

[Erik_Twice]

I can disapprove of a lot of things and still be respectful of that person as a human being. I do not appreciate your tone, or your accusation.

And you think gay people appreciate your "respect"? Do you really think gay people are fine with you dissaproving of their sexuality, their acts of love, their relationships? They think you are full of shit, dude, you cannot respect homosexuals if you don't respect their homosexuality.

"Oh, I respect Christians, I respect them so much I want them to renounce of their faith so they can be saved. It's for their own good, because if they don't they'll be tortured for eternity! I also don't want Christians to be able to marry, adopt, have children or buy my products. I don't think they should go to church. And nobody should be forced to work with a Christian, everyone should be able to decide if they want to associate with them!

[BoneSnapDeez]

The bile against organized religion on this board is toxic. Of all the forums i'm on this is by far the most hostile to religion. It's not close.

Tossing around the term bigot is sad. Speck / Log / Eye and all that. Bigotry toward religion is still bigotry. The irony isn't comical - it's offensive.

Just be aware that, by that same measure, people of faith will take your statements as anti-religious bigotry, at least with the way you've presented your case. I'm not saying that you are, I'm saying that is how it will be perceived.

So absurd I would question if these statements were satire if I didn't know better.

This isn't a "two-way street" no matter how you try to spin it.

There's an enormous gulf between discriminating against individuals based on their sexual preference vs. "getting called out" for willfully embracing an egregiously authoritarian religious/political ideology.

[jp1]

So long as they are being respectful of you and your lifestyle and they aren't actively trying to denigrate you, rather speaking solely about their own belief.

As long as someone thinks that gay people doing something so inherent to basic human decency as loving and forming relationships is sinful and something "to atone for" they are everything but respectful.

And arguing that people should be refused service based on their sexuality is also as denigrating as it gets, really.

Ok, I can see that an agenda has formed here and that seeing us as separate entities is not serving that agenda. Since I have been largely ignored except for this one snippet taken out of context, I'll respectfully decline any further involvement with the discussion.

There is no credence at all being given to the notion that not every christian subscribes to the exact same beliefs, interpretations, or practices of their faith. I have been arguing for basic human rights of everyone this entire time, but the moment that I utter a word of support that extends the courtesy of allowing a person their own beliefs, even though I may not share them, is when I get an audience.

It isn't enough that a person practices in acceptance of your lifestyle? They must also believe what you want them to believe as well? As someone who completely supports your stance on the original topic and on the topic of your right to be treated equally regardless of your sexuality, I still think that demand is going a little too far. The whole thing, quite frankly, is starting to feel like an attack on Christianity as a whole. The original discussion has veered so far off course that we aren't really even speaking about it any longer.

I know the natural question in your mind is "What do you mean by acceptance, what is to accept?" because in your viewpoint there is nothing wrong. I understand, I really do. The problem is that other people do not share your viewpoint, and while they live with the views and beliefs that they are entitled to as a free thinking human offering you "acceptance" is the most respectful thing they can do, short of compromising their own beliefs.

These aren't my personal views, which is quite clear if you read my posts in full. I'm only trying to point out that the man who shows you respect regardless of his beliefs is not the same as the man who treats you like garbage because of them. Little is being done to recognize the difference here.

[Flake]

I have never understood why a person's sexual preferences outside of the moments in their life that they are having sex should matter to anyone but the parties involved.

[Sarge]

That person can still respect the Christian without respecting their beliefs. I would hope you fall into that category, personally. Do you respect me as a human being despite espousing an ideology you find abhorrent? If you do, then you understand where I am coming from. If you do not, then you are doing precisely what you are saying I am doing.

Christianity is just as strong a part of who I am, my very identity, as homosexuality is to many in that community. But I do not feel that I should be free from being offended, for someone to disagree with me, my faith, or my ideology.

If they think I am, as you say, "full of s***", that is not something under my control if I have explained my position adequately. And I would simultaneously not assume that a person does not respect my human worth if they do not respect my faith.

There are plenty of people in this world that would gladly eradicate all religion if they could. In some corners of the earth, this is actively happening! Yet in this country, those that disagree with my way of life exercise negative tolerance. I am allowed to practice my faith even though they do not actively endorse it. Too often, though, we conflate negative tolerance with intolerance.

Just be aware that, by that same measure, people of faith will take your statements as anti-religious bigotry, at least with the way you've presented your case. I'm not saying that you are, I'm saying that is how it will be perceived.

So absurd I would question if these statements were satire if I didn't know better.

This isn't a "two-way street" no matter how you try to spin it.

There's an enormous gulf between discriminating against individuals based on their sexual preference vs. "getting called out" for willfully embracing an egregiously authoritarian religious/political ideology.

Except that it is a two-way street, based on the laws of the land.

This is the last time I'm going to say it, because people are still continuing to ascribe a position to me that I have not espoused. I have not, in any way, advocated discrimination of an individual based solely on their sexual preference.

Furthermore, not whole-heartedly endorsing a position does not make my religious or political ideology "egregiously authoritarian".

It's become abundantly clear that there's no actual discussion here. The only thing that has occurred is having my words twisted, taken to an extreme in order to assume moral superiority in an argument.

Perhaps Christians in your pasts have committed an act for which you can find no forgiveness. If they, or I, have hurt you, I truly apologize. I also feel hurt by some of the feelings expressed here, robbed of the ability to have an honest discussion. Both my feelings and my religion have been grossly misrepresented. I'd hoped for better, and we're so far off the thrust of my original statement that it's hard to determine whether that was just message board creep or intentional obfuscation.

@jp1: You have encapsulated my exact feelings on the matter. Thank you for your words.

[BoneSnapDeez]

I have not, in any way, advocated discrimination of an individual based solely on their sexual preference.

You have expressed support for a bill designed to literally do that very thing. Repeatedly.

taken to an extreme in order to assume moral superiority in an argument.

The irony...

[Sarge]

I have not, in any way, advocated discrimination of an individual based solely on their sexual preference.

You have expressed support for a bill designed to literally do that very thing. Repeatedly.

Except the bill in question, from what I have read and understand, does not do that, and was the source of my original distinction between discrimination solely based on sexual preference, and providing for a particular ceremony that conflicts with that person's faith. Additionally, I have not voiced any support or opposition to said bill in question. I have raised the point that there is a conflict of rights here, one religious and associative in nature, versus the right to obtain a particular good or service.

taken to an extreme in order to assume moral superiority in an argument.

The irony...

There's no irony here at all. My viewpoint has been misrepresented to make a point. I have, as far as I know, neither misrepresented anyone else's viewpoint here, nor have I claimed moral superiority.

My previous statement stands. No one is actually listening to what I am saying, merely what they wish for my words to be because that position is much easier to argue against.

[pepharytheworm]

I will freely admit I am a bigot towards bigots. Oh wait..... wouldn't that make me a bigot towards myself.. oh.. no!

Christians being persecuted on this forum is a joke and that's what really side-stepped this discussion.
Whatever perceived disrespect you feel, your words toward non-heterosexuals is worse, because they live it everyday. You don't like the way it feels in this minor way just imagine how they feel their entire life.

To get back on topic who else would be affected by this other than non-heterosexuals? Because so far that's all it seems like who would be. And in what ways other then providing services for a wedding?

[Sarge]

I will freely admit I am a bigot towards bigots. Oh wait..... wouldn't that make me a bigot towards myself.. oh.. no!

Christians being persecuted on this forum is a joke and that's what really side-stepped this discussion.
Whatever perceived disrespect you feel, your words toward non-heterosexuals is worse, because they live it everyday. You don't like the way it feels in this minor way just imagine how they feel their entire life.

To get back on topic who else would be affected by this other than non-heterosexuals? Because so far that's all it seems like who would be. And in what ways other then providing services for a wedding?

Are you calling me a bigot? If so, congratulations. At least you had the guts to outright do so.

My claim is that some people are arguing in bad faith. I cannot speak to the underlying motive. However, if I am wrong, tell me why. State your position, and let its superiority over my own speak for itself. There is no need to twist my own position to do so.

And with that, I'm not sure it's worth even discussing anything here anymore. If you wonder why people of faith are unwilling to share their views, this is it. It's one thing to disagree, vehemently even, but misrepresentation of those views in the pursuit of validating one's own is intellectually dishonest. It's not worth my time, or anyone else's.