Homosexuality

[optmusprimenumber]

I'm not gonna read all 16 pages.. .

...so i'll just make a silly comment that has nothing to do with the previous 160+ posts.

Oh, but I will of course assume there were some Christians who posted, so i'll make some blanket statements to be sure to insult them.

Fixed, and thanks for your contribution to a nice thread.

dude, i read the op, went off that, chill out

if there were any other demographic besides gay bashers in opposition to homosexuality i might have touched on that too, as it stands (as i am aware) there isn't

it's the religious folks who are trying to keep gay people from getting married
thanks for attempting to project ignorance onto my otherwise normal observation

[mjmjr25]

I'm not worked up, guy.

I think it's pretty lame to make comments that has nothing to do with the general direction of a thread for 16 pages, and then make a blanket post that is rife of topic-dissociated opinion and void of any actual empirical data.

You admitted you were to lazy to read the thread. I wish you had had the courtesy to be too lazy to make a post.

[optmusprimenumber]

and as the years go by the Bible becomes less and less of a source of anything worth paying attention to

I disagree. The humility, kindness, and self-control I have learned from the Bible have been very useful.

but those lessons aren't just found in the bible, they were lifted from other religions, as most of that book was. no offense. it's just what happened.

[optmusprimenumber]

I'm not worked up, guy.

I think it's pretty lame to make comments that has nothing to do with the general direction of a thread for 16 pages, and then make a blanket post that is rife of topic-dissociated opinion and void of any actual empirical data.

You admitted you were to lazy to read the thread. I wish you had had the courtesy to be too lazy to make a post.

besides my one line that is obviously an opinion (..less of something to pay attention to...) i made observations. i stated that yes i support homosexuality, if they respectfully keep it off me then i respect their decisions. and no, i did not make up that christians have a problem with homosexuality... despite all the wretched things that have occurred throughout history in the name of god. that being said, i sustain that extremist christians/catholics/etc ought to get off the gay bashing wagon and let be and let live. my comments, as i said, were based off the general direction of the original post...

"1) Is this disapproval strictly grounded in (Christian) religious teachings?

If so, I really don't see sound Biblical reasoning for "disapproving" of homosexuality. The New Testament's writings on the subject are responding to what Paul sees as social problems of sexuality grounded in sensuality and lust, and the Old Testament's references groups it in with other non-kosher behavior such as mixing threads. The fact that several major mainline denominations perform gay marriages and ordain gay ministers seems to suggest that any interpretation of these passages as proof of the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality itself is far from ironclad, and perhaps more reflective of church tradition than of sound theology."

and again, who is it that says "homosexual union ruins the sanctity of marriage" .. not me dood

a wise man once said "Honesty and speaking your mind are rarely appreciated, and often mistaken for arrogance." you might know him

[DinnerX]

but those lessons aren't just found in the bible

I did not say they were. Nevertheless, they are in the Bible, and they are useful.

that being said, i sustain that extremist christians/catholics/etc ought to get off the gay bashing wagon and let be and let live.

If you read the thread, I don't think you will find any gay bashing. Also, the idea of "live and let live" has been addressed in various places in this thread already.

Furthermore, I do not think Catholics are more prone to be gay bashers than any other branch of "Christianity."

[harper]

No, there's no "gay bashing", but there is some "I don't think gay people should get married" and "if someone asked me if I think gay people should get married I'd say no", so how is that any better? That's denying someone the right to get married because they're gay. How is that any better than saying "I hate gays"?

Really not trying to start an argument here, btw.

[DinnerX]

Let me put it differently. What is a "marriage" (or whatever else we might call it)? Is a marriage a union of a man and a woman? Is a marriage a union of a man and a group of women or vice versa? Is a marriage the union of a group of adults? Is a marriage the union of two adults? People may have a right to marriage, but what exactly is a "marriage"? One's definition of "marriage" changes what a right to "marriage" entails.

If one believes a marriage is simply a union of two adults, then he/she naturally believes a homosexual union is a legitimate marriage. However many people do not believe that is what a marriage is. So we have a battle of beliefs, with both sides fighting as hard as they can to put their particular belief into government policy.

[Key-Glyph]

This has been a very interesting read. Thanks to all the contributors.

I have a question, if anyone would like to respond. For those who feel compassionate toward homosexuals but are "bothered" by homosexual behaviors, what specific factor is doing the "bothering?" Meaning, is it the anxiety of your concern for the eternal salvation of the souls of the demographic in question, or a sensation of physical repulsion in the presence of something "unnatural," that is the source of the upsetting feeling?

I've heard people (not limited to this thread) explain that they hold nothing against homosexuals except that God condemned it in writing (i.e. the Book is what matters), and heard others hold that their gut feeling of revulsion is the ultimate proof against the lifestyle (i.e. the Gut is what matters). Do those of you who subscribe to either one of these philosophies see yourselves as arriving at a common conclusion with your fellows through equally valid channels? Or do you consider your particular path (whichever it may be) as being the "proper" one? I'm always curious as to what is more important in these cases: the book or the gut? Does one trump the other? And if so, which one is it?

I hope that made sense. I had a weird time wording it.

[dsheinem]

Let me put it differently. What is a "marriage" (or whatever else we might call it)? Is a marriage a union of a man and a woman? Is a marriage a union of a man and a group of women or vice versa? Is a marriage the union of a group of adults? Is a marriage the union of two adults? People may have a right to marriage, but what exactly is a "marriage"? One's definition of "marriage" changes what a right to "marriage" entails.

If one believes a marriage is simply a union of two adults, then he/she naturally believes a homosexual union is a legitimate marriage. However many people do not believe that is what a marriage is. So we have a battle of beliefs, with both sides fighting as hard as they can to put their particular belief into government policy.

But if the grounds for those beliefs are rooted solely in religion (and no one has really argued otherwise) don't you see the problem of the state imposing them? Leading up to the Civil War many people cited passages explaining that the Bible condones slavery, but thankfully those "Biblical principles" and "God's unchanging laws" didn't hold sway over the actual legal rights the state could grant to African Americans. Common sense, human rights, and dignity prevailed...

I think that the anti same-sex marriage people want to push against the racism comparison, but so many of their arguments are so very similar to those against ending slavery, granting civil rights to other groups, etc. Why would you want to stand on that side of history? I think many of you will be embarrassed to admit you espoused the position you do in anther 25-30 years or so (if not sooner)...

[mjmjr25]

No, there's no "gay bashing", but there is some "I don't think gay people should get married" and "if someone asked me if I think gay people should get married I'd say no", so how is that any better? That's denying someone the right to get married because they're gay. How is that any better than saying "I hate gays"?

Really not trying to start an argument here, btw.

I believe participating in homosexual acts is sinful.

I believe boastfulness and braggadocia are sinful.

I believe deceit is sinful.

I believe gambling is sinful.

As are lying, coveting, cursing, assaulting (verbal, physical, sexual, emotional, etc) are sinful. Etcetera and etcetera.

I do not subscribe, nor do most practicing Christians, that it has to be "illegal" or "one of the 10 commandments" to be sinful. This is my belief system and I force it on no one. Opinions were asked, and I shared mine.

It is not bashing or mean-spirited, because as has been said ad-nauseum, practicing Christians try to mindful to not point at the splinter in the eye of a fellow sinner, whilst ignoring the log in our own. Meaning, I sin everyday, harper. I yell in anger, I brag about possessions, I curse in frustration. Those are sinful acts and I am sad when I do them. I do not hate myself and I do not bash myself.

My wife, friends, children, peers and neighbors sin everyday. We all do. We are not Christ, but rather try to be Christlike in our actions. This is done through a renewed focus every day, honest asking of forgiveness for our actions, and hope for both of those things through thoughtful prayer.

I don't bash any of those people, I don't hate any of those people. That is how it is different. I fully recognize I sin each and everyday.

If someone asked me should gambling be illegal, I would say no. One perception is that it should be an individual decision for a consenting adult. My opinion is that it is legitimizing a sinful act. Same if you asked me if teachers should be allowed to tell an 8yo student to "Shut the f*** up." Should that be allowed? Why or why not? It's just a word. Who determines which words are inappropriate? To me that is the same thing. If you ask me if it should be legal for a teacher to curse, I would say no. Why? Because it legitimizes language I believe to be sinful. If you ask me if homosexuals should be married, I would say no. Same reason, it legitimizes something I believe to be sinful.

I believe homosexuals (some, maybe most, not all) are drawn to the act by nature (and more would be drawn through nurture in the current climate).

I believe I am biologically drawn toward gambling and drinking (which leads to the sin of womanizing for me).

If that is equilibrate to "I hate guys", then i'm at a loss and unfortunately not getting my point across. I don't hate myself for my sinful nature. I don't bash myself. I don't bash my sinful family and friends. I would not want anyone to bash me for those behaviors, but I would hope folks would offer me unconditional friendship, and pray for me if I asked them to. Which is what I offer to anyone who will accept it.