Private University or Trade school?

[Jmustang1968]

I forgot, since I am a white male, my opinion is invalid. Regardless of any life events I went through. You cant speak to what my experiences have been like. So much more is beyond ethnicity and gender, yet we all too often blame it on just that.

They dont choose to not give financial aid based on gender or ethnicity. Actually, I believe the numbers have trended where more females are going to college than males.

My struggles growing up poor (and other issues that i dont wish to discuss openly on the internet) taught me not to squander opportunities. My peers in school chose their paths. Some of all mixed genders and ethnicities chose to further education and learn skills while others did not.

I think it is a defeatist attitude that some have to think they arent good enough and that the odds are too stacked against them to try.

I work with an older black man who grew up in Alabama, and went through all of the forced bussing in to white schools as a kid. He says if he listened to the people who said he couldnt because of his skin or tried to blame others for his situation, he wouldnt be where he is. He struggled about this with his kids as well as they took no initiative to go through school and work hard despite his guidance. According to him, he blames it on a defeatist culture of 'well they say the odds are against me, so I might as well not try'.

[Blu]

Incorrect. Your opinion is able to be expressed, but when it's an opinion that treads on or diminishes the experiences of others, I cannot accept that at face value without some sort of understanding as to why you have that opinion. I certainly can't speak to your experiences.

Again, you skate around the issue of equity and instead rationalize by saying it taught you not to squander opportunities. Would you have had as easy of a chance in your engineering field if you were a woman? Would you have been as successful at Texas A&M if you were black? When you look around your office, is there much visual diversity?

It's hardly a defeatist attitude when the deck is stacked hard against you because of what you were born into.

Your colleague speaks about a cycle of socialization that keeps people within their existing social constructs. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's a way of maintaining the status quo so as to not rock the boat and cause social upheaval. It takes a strong person, a supportive structure of people who serve as allies, and drive to fight against all of the microaggressions that people with targeted identities face.

[Jmustang1968]

Incorrect. Your opinion is able to be expressed, but when it's an opinion that treads on the experiences of others, I cannot accept.

Again, you skate around the issue of equity and instead rationalize by saying it taught you not to squander opportunities. Would you have had as easy of a chance in your engineering field if you were a woman? Would you have been as successful at Texas A&M if you were black?

It's hardly a defeatist attitude when the deck is stacked hard against you because of what you were born into.

Your colleague speaks about a cycle of socialization that keeps people within their existing social constructs. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's a way of maintaining the status quo so as to not rock the boat and cause social upheaval. It takes a strong person, a supportive structure of support of allies, and drive to fight against all of the microaggressions that people with targeted identities face.

I am also overweight/always been a big guy. I am very aware of being judged based on appearances.

Yes, several of my female high school class mates went on to be engineers at A&M.

I paid all of my school through loans and grants, and a very few scholarships. These were open to all and given based on financial need.

And not personal, but honestly, I dont care if you accept my opinion or not. My life experiences and observations are my own and dont need to be validated from someone living in a different area and personal mindset.

And according to him, it is points of view similar to those you share that are harmful. They are saying their chances are low, and thus most give up or dont even try. Everyones lot in life is unique and different as we all have different skills and aptitudes. Some will have it easier than others, but just because it is difficult, you dont give up.

[jp1]

Our society is built to ensure that there isn't just one large middle class. The thing that is escaping people who go on these tangents about "well if I can make it..." is that there has to be some poor guy (or several) who couldn't/didn't for whatever reason, you don't know their life circumstances either. If everyone took every opportunity, or had the aptitude for everything, or the upbringing, or life circumstance to be where you are...then you may not be there due to tremendous competition and low demand. Not to mention that a lot of industries are supported by those who don't manage money well or haven't learned those skills (like Frag pointed out). It would be a bleak outlook indeed if everyone could just pull up their bootstraps and be successful. The very idea of it is ludicrous.

What about poor schooling in less desirable parts of town? Those kids who are behind from the jump, who may not learn to read or write properly because the school just doesn't have the resources to provide a proper education, are they to be blamed as well for giving up on a fight they have no hope of winning? It is important to have a class system (which I'm not attributing to race/gender/etc..), for capitalism to function. You worked hard and beat the odds? Good...you should be proud. Imagine for a minute that circumstance didn't allow it, how would you like to be looked upon?

It isn't always a choice. I'm surprised that if you grew up poor you aren't aware of that. Every person has a different story, a different life, and a different outlook. Lumping them together for some sort of life lesson on working hard is not a solution. I probably fit in a lower tax bracket than most of you, though I'm comfortable, but despite what you may think I don't judge you simply because of your status in life. I give credit where it is due, and being successful in school/life/career is an accomplishment. It's one accomplishment of the great many accomplishments and qualities a person can attain. There should be some focus on the rest as well.

Anyway, nobody is changing anybody else's mind so I'll agree to disagree and step out of it.

[Ack]

It bothers me that we seem to be limiting our views on what success must mean to be solely economic or educational.

jp1, you have a successful marriage, a good family, and strong friendships. I don't care how much money you make or what you've done in life, it sounds like you have success in some ways that I don't, and we both share a common interest in the same hobby which has brought us together to talk about it.

Yes, a lot of folks don't make it in one respect or another. For every guy in the NBA, there's a 100 who didn't make it. For every famous musician, writer, or artist, there are thousands more who didn't make it. For every successful business owner, God only knows how many failed. But their lives aren't over, and they can still experience success in some other way, and they can still drive and fight and try again. Sure, there are a lot of folks who didn't make it and got dealt the shit end of the stick more than once in some form or fashion. I know quite a few. To me, it really comes down to how many of them tried and still try, and how many of them gave up and quit. I know poor folks who pushed and pushed and found their own success, and I know rich folks from "good" families who completely squandered everything and now do nothing with themselves except do drugs and complain. I also know which ones of those two groups that I prefer to be around and which ones I consider to be a success and would rather emulate.

[dsheinem]

It bothers me that we seem to be limiting our views on what success must mean to be solely economic or educational.

that may be due to the thread title/first post, which set up this primary binary

[Blu]

+1 jp1. +1 Ack

John, I don't believe that my viewpoints are harmful, rather I am speaking about a broad, systemic problem rather than an individualized focus. However we can make an impact if we choose to acknowledge that these problems exist and that we can all assist in the effort. I've previously worked closely with three TRIO programs who support disadvantaged students. Those include the Ronald McNair PostBaccalaureate Achievement, Student Support Services, and Upward Bound. They're all fairly successful, federally funded programs and aim to bring some equity in higher education with regards to first-generation, socioeconomic status, race, gender, etc. These students might not have had the same chance if these programs exist. More or less, now that Affirmative Action is not legally recognized, it's one of the few avenues to get underrepresented/underprivileged students into universities.

The students that do get here in some less-advantaged schools have greater challenges and a steep learning curve than students who actually had a suburban, well-funded education.

I amended my bit about your opinion with a little less edge, so that you understood it wasn't making it personal.

[JsGameRoom]

I grew up poor, so I've been there, done that.

Yup.

I was raised by a single mom who was more worried about who she was sleeping with next and partying than raising her child.

I went to 7 different middle schools and 9 different high schools from moving so much.

Lived in shit trailers, cars, etc...It fucking sucked, and I told myself I would never be like her.

And btw she's a college graduate. So...yeah..there's that

Right, but you haven't grown up as someone who was either non-white

It's 2014. Get the fuck out with that shit.

Explain this to me. Why did it cost me $3500 a class in college.. but I had TWO black people in my class tell me they were getting PAID to go to college and I quote " because we are a minority"


So you're telling just because they are a couple shades darker than me.. They are from America... their parents are from here... Their grandparents are from here... They automatically " deserve" more?

[Jmustang1968]

Yeah I agree with Ack. And Blu I didnt take it so much as personal, just defending my point of view.

I will end it with the saying that it is easy to point the finger at oneself in succes and at others in failure

[JsGameRoom]

What about poor schooling in less desirable parts of town? Those kids who are behind from the jump, who may not learn to read or write properly because the school just doesn't have the resources to provide a proper education,.

No. My ex fiancée is a teacher. She got a job in a GREAT district....But her starting salary was $32,000.

Kind of hard to get a teacher to give a shit about the children when she doesn't even have the money to pay her bills.

She has $800 a month in student loan bills. Her GROSS income a week was just over $600 so after taxes you're talking $550.

1 bed 1 bath studio apartment $600.. 800+600 = 1400.. which is almost THREE weeks pay. What about power? Water? Car? Gas? Food?

Even though the school district may be good. Forcing the teachers to live in shit situations because of pay doesn't help. When your teacher is coming to school every day worrying about her lights being shut off you can't expect them to be 100% into teaching.