ejamer, how long is your average multiplayer game of catacombs (more than 2)?
Due to reading up on it, I am breaking out the Carrom board tonight. The cats are going to freak out.
Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
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fastbilly1
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Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
Tsuro
I've played this a couple of times at lunch now and it's a good little time waster. Simple to pick up and it's got some simple strategy. You place tiles on a grid and move your piece along the prescribed lines; if your path leads you to the edge of the board you're out. Goal is to be the last one standing.
I'd love to fashion this game out of actual tiles and create grooves with some sort of tile router, if such a thing exists. Then make pieces that fit into the grooves and can be slid along.
I'd love to fashion this game out of actual tiles and create grooves with some sort of tile router, if such a thing exists. Then make pieces that fit into the grooves and can be slid along.
Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended...so the world might be mended.
Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
Tsuro is one of those rare games that supports 2-10 players, is easy to explain and play, has a quick play time, and can be pulled out almost any game night. They have a more advanced one with some random hazards, but I found it less fun. At conventions the publisher has a large-scale mat with rug-sized tiles for human-sized play.
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Markies
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Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
I went to PAX in 2013 and I played that version.marurun wrote:Tsuro is one of those rare games that supports 2-10 players, is easy to explain and play, has a quick play time, and can be pulled out almost any game night. They have a more advanced one with some random hazards, but I found it less fun. At conventions the publisher has a large-scale mat with rug-sized tiles for human-sized play.
That was the first and only time I've played Tsuro. I also saw the TableTop episode about the game.
I've wanted to buy Tsuro on those recommendations alone. Seems like an easy and fun game. A perfect Gateway game!
Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
Apologies in advance for the upcoming wall of text.
(+) easy to play - The rulebook is big, especially for a dexterity game, because there are a lot of special shot types available. Poison shots, stunning shots, critical shots, devour shots, freeze shots, bite shots, ranged shots, chain shots, fear modifiers, etc etc. However, the basic rules are very simple and beyond that you only need one person at the table who can explain exceptions and special rules at the start of each room.
(+) tons of variety - With several different two-sided boards to choose from, many different monster types that could appear in any given room, and a bunch of unique heroes available (6 in the base game, many more if you get expansions) you probably won't ever run into the same situation twice. I feel like expansions are good but not necessary until you've played quite a few games already.
(-) balance issues - If both sides go absolutely all-out, the dungeon master has an advantage. Some people have (IMO) overstated this advantage in other forums, because either side can win with smart play and good shots from the heroes, but an advantage does exist. Poison is overpowered, and if the overseer hand-picks his monsters in every room he can really be a dick about chipping away at the heroes.
I'm ok if the team with fewer players has a better chance to win. To me it feels like the team with more players should have the greater challenge to overcome, and I have no issue with people taking turns as overlord.
This game is at it's best when the overseer likes making the game exciting in early rounds, saving the crushing blow for the final room rather than go all out the entire time. It's at it's worst when the overseer player is a rules lawyer who wants to take advantage of every possible trick to prove how great he is. My goal as overseer is to never kill in early rooms, but to weaken the heroes and pressure them into using too many of their limited spells/items before reaching the last room. I also like to use my boss character to kill in style rather than relying on disposable minions.
(+) good with different player counts - Because the game boils down to a four heroes vs one bad guy epic adventure, it scales pretty well from 2 to 5 people. One person always handles the bad guys, and the rest just split up control of the heroes (either "owning" one or more heroes or by taking turns shooting and using whichever hero they prefer in the moment). The number of heroes in a game never changes though, so adding players doesn't have a significant effect on extending game time outside of adding more discussion.
(+) good for all ages - Dexterity games are appealing to all ages because of the physical nature, but balance can be an issue; in Catacombs you can work as a team to support weaker players or have a more lenient player as dungeon master. My kids (ages 4 and 6) both play and think it's great, as do my teenage nephews, as do my adult friends.
(+) good play requires planning - The heroes in particular have some interesting decisions to make. Strategic choices include picking which heroes to use (some heroes have notable advantages over different types of foes) and how to manage single-use resources. Tactical choices each turn include who should shoot first, when and how to use special abilities, and how to best take advantage of positioning on the board (ie: do I bump friendly units into better position or strike the enemies). There is pressure on the heroes to aggressively go after the monsters - unleashing devastating "first strike" hits or finding ways to deal with stressful situations when a shot goes awry.
(-) possibility of player elimination - If a hero runs out of health (which is a reasonable strategy for the overlord to pursue) then that hero is dead until/unless you can reach the healer for resurrection. Depending on how many players are controlling the heroes, that could mean someone is essentially sitting out for a little bit. This is easy to get around with house rules, or if your overlord isn't being super aggressive early on, but it can be a problem for some groups.
(+/-) game length - Generally, I'd set aside 90-120 minutes to play a game. It depends on your group, as some people really like to strategize and discuss options before each shot while others are of the "wham-bam" school of thought. But my experience has been that a full game will rarely go less than 90+ minutes... which is pretty long for a dexterity game. (Some of that is the set up and tear down between rooms, most of it is the discussion and planning during turns, and some is the inevitable trash talk that happens before/during/after key shots. It's a great game to play at a relaxed pace though - very social.)
Personally, I like this. To me, it feels like a substantial adventure with some progression instead of a one and done battle. Managing health and gold, then upgrading characters before the final boss is a big part of the fun for me. The length does make it harder to get on the table than I'd prefer though.
Note that you can vary game length by changing how many rooms the heroes need to clear before challenging the boss. More rooms will be a bigger drain on hero resources (health/magic/special items) but will also allow them to collect more gold to purchase healing or new items before the final encounter. However, it's usually the final room where the real challenge is regardless of what's happened beforehand.
The new Catacombs & Castles game that is being KickStarted hasn't had all details about rule changes revealed yet, but is supposed to address some of the negative points above.
* The game takes place on a single board instead of being a progression through multiple rooms, so will be much quicker paced (reported to be 30-60 min).
* Instead of 1-vs-many you can break into evenly matched teams.
* Player elimination seems to be dropped using a "shared health" option instead of giving heroes individual health.
* Rules will be streamlined a bit by reducing the number of special shot types and exceptions that players need to know.
The downside to those changes are that people (like me) who want bigger and more complex games, or who want a more aggressive challenge, might find the new game less appealing. Of course, that's just speculation - the sequel isn't out yet, and obviously I haven't played it.
fastbilly1 wrote:ejamer give me the 411 ...
So how does your average game play?
Ok, some quick comments below. I'm going to focus on the 3rd edition that was just released last year - it has the cartoonish artwork with bright colors instead of black-and-white art.fastbilly1 wrote:ejamer, how long is your average multiplayer game of catacombs (more than 2)?
...
(+) easy to play - The rulebook is big, especially for a dexterity game, because there are a lot of special shot types available. Poison shots, stunning shots, critical shots, devour shots, freeze shots, bite shots, ranged shots, chain shots, fear modifiers, etc etc. However, the basic rules are very simple and beyond that you only need one person at the table who can explain exceptions and special rules at the start of each room.
(+) tons of variety - With several different two-sided boards to choose from, many different monster types that could appear in any given room, and a bunch of unique heroes available (6 in the base game, many more if you get expansions) you probably won't ever run into the same situation twice. I feel like expansions are good but not necessary until you've played quite a few games already.
(-) balance issues - If both sides go absolutely all-out, the dungeon master has an advantage. Some people have (IMO) overstated this advantage in other forums, because either side can win with smart play and good shots from the heroes, but an advantage does exist. Poison is overpowered, and if the overseer hand-picks his monsters in every room he can really be a dick about chipping away at the heroes.
I'm ok if the team with fewer players has a better chance to win. To me it feels like the team with more players should have the greater challenge to overcome, and I have no issue with people taking turns as overlord.
This game is at it's best when the overseer likes making the game exciting in early rounds, saving the crushing blow for the final room rather than go all out the entire time. It's at it's worst when the overseer player is a rules lawyer who wants to take advantage of every possible trick to prove how great he is. My goal as overseer is to never kill in early rooms, but to weaken the heroes and pressure them into using too many of their limited spells/items before reaching the last room. I also like to use my boss character to kill in style rather than relying on disposable minions.
(+) good with different player counts - Because the game boils down to a four heroes vs one bad guy epic adventure, it scales pretty well from 2 to 5 people. One person always handles the bad guys, and the rest just split up control of the heroes (either "owning" one or more heroes or by taking turns shooting and using whichever hero they prefer in the moment). The number of heroes in a game never changes though, so adding players doesn't have a significant effect on extending game time outside of adding more discussion.
(+) good for all ages - Dexterity games are appealing to all ages because of the physical nature, but balance can be an issue; in Catacombs you can work as a team to support weaker players or have a more lenient player as dungeon master. My kids (ages 4 and 6) both play and think it's great, as do my teenage nephews, as do my adult friends.
(+) good play requires planning - The heroes in particular have some interesting decisions to make. Strategic choices include picking which heroes to use (some heroes have notable advantages over different types of foes) and how to manage single-use resources. Tactical choices each turn include who should shoot first, when and how to use special abilities, and how to best take advantage of positioning on the board (ie: do I bump friendly units into better position or strike the enemies). There is pressure on the heroes to aggressively go after the monsters - unleashing devastating "first strike" hits or finding ways to deal with stressful situations when a shot goes awry.
(-) possibility of player elimination - If a hero runs out of health (which is a reasonable strategy for the overlord to pursue) then that hero is dead until/unless you can reach the healer for resurrection. Depending on how many players are controlling the heroes, that could mean someone is essentially sitting out for a little bit. This is easy to get around with house rules, or if your overlord isn't being super aggressive early on, but it can be a problem for some groups.
(+/-) game length - Generally, I'd set aside 90-120 minutes to play a game. It depends on your group, as some people really like to strategize and discuss options before each shot while others are of the "wham-bam" school of thought. But my experience has been that a full game will rarely go less than 90+ minutes... which is pretty long for a dexterity game. (Some of that is the set up and tear down between rooms, most of it is the discussion and planning during turns, and some is the inevitable trash talk that happens before/during/after key shots. It's a great game to play at a relaxed pace though - very social.)
Personally, I like this. To me, it feels like a substantial adventure with some progression instead of a one and done battle. Managing health and gold, then upgrading characters before the final boss is a big part of the fun for me. The length does make it harder to get on the table than I'd prefer though.
Note that you can vary game length by changing how many rooms the heroes need to clear before challenging the boss. More rooms will be a bigger drain on hero resources (health/magic/special items) but will also allow them to collect more gold to purchase healing or new items before the final encounter. However, it's usually the final room where the real challenge is regardless of what's happened beforehand.
The new Catacombs & Castles game that is being KickStarted hasn't had all details about rule changes revealed yet, but is supposed to address some of the negative points above.
* The game takes place on a single board instead of being a progression through multiple rooms, so will be much quicker paced (reported to be 30-60 min).
* Instead of 1-vs-many you can break into evenly matched teams.
* Player elimination seems to be dropped using a "shared health" option instead of giving heroes individual health.
* Rules will be streamlined a bit by reducing the number of special shot types and exceptions that players need to know.
The downside to those changes are that people (like me) who want bigger and more complex games, or who want a more aggressive challenge, might find the new game less appealing. Of course, that's just speculation - the sequel isn't out yet, and obviously I haven't played it.
Last edited by ejamer on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
Agree with all of this.marurun wrote:Tsuro is one of those rare games that supports 2-10 players, is easy to explain and play, has a quick play time, and can be pulled out almost any game night. ...
The only downside I find for Tsuro is that there really isn't really much strategy - it's chaotic and fun, but you have limited control over the end result and kind of have to accept being in for the ride and hoping for the best. That isn't bad in a game this quick and attractive! But I find that it's something you don't want to play too often or else the shine kind of fades.
(Once played something like 9 games in a row. That was, for me, way too much Tsuro and I was keen to play something more meaty. However, I bet it would be excellent as a drinking game if you were playing repeatedly.)
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fastbilly1
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Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
You sold me ejamer. Now to decide between $150 and $250 levels.
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mjmjr25
Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
I'm sold as well.
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Tsuro - we have both versions. It's fun and quick. Good for those that don't like much depth, want a quick easy to learn game, but don't want to do a card game either.
Mitch - you are spot on. So many of us would PAY the cost to have a grooved board on games like this, Kwirkle, etc. So frustrating - especially when playing with Meat-hands McGhee.
Some games like Alhambra and Carcassone the board can move too many directions or tiles are different sizes and it may not work - but a whole lot of them would benefit from a grooved board.
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The top games i've played the last 12 months (some of these i've already praised):
Castle of Mad King Ludwig
Splendor
Zombicide
Incan Gold
Skull
The Resistance
These 6 games are getting heavy rotation. They are all completely different and fit almost any mood you may have.
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Tsuro - we have both versions. It's fun and quick. Good for those that don't like much depth, want a quick easy to learn game, but don't want to do a card game either.
Mitch - you are spot on. So many of us would PAY the cost to have a grooved board on games like this, Kwirkle, etc. So frustrating - especially when playing with Meat-hands McGhee.
Some games like Alhambra and Carcassone the board can move too many directions or tiles are different sizes and it may not work - but a whole lot of them would benefit from a grooved board.
---------------------------
The top games i've played the last 12 months (some of these i've already praised):
Castle of Mad King Ludwig
Splendor
Zombicide
Incan Gold
Skull
The Resistance
These 6 games are getting heavy rotation. They are all completely different and fit almost any mood you may have.
Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
Have you tried Patchwork? Not sure if you have much use for a 2-player only game, but based on some of the others you've listed I bet you'd enjoy it.
Nice list of games. I really enjoy Splendor. The weighted chips feel great when playing, and provide a nice tactile contrast to the abstract gameplay. Skull is also great - I usually go Liar's Dice for bluffing because it's easy to teach and everyone seems to have dice available, but Skull offers a similar feel in a quicker and more condensed package.
Nice list of games. I really enjoy Splendor. The weighted chips feel great when playing, and provide a nice tactile contrast to the abstract gameplay. Skull is also great - I usually go Liar's Dice for bluffing because it's easy to teach and everyone seems to have dice available, but Skull offers a similar feel in a quicker and more condensed package.
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mjmjr25
Re: Board Games: The Thread (Come say hi!)
Yep - Patchwork is fun, my wife and I play it, as do me and the kids. We like 2p games and do competitions. This one is lighter, of course. I'm not a fan of making rule adjustments - but completing the large pattern should be a larger bonus imo, or having alternate prizes for other quilts.
Quilt Show is incredibly fun and has a lot more strategy (2-4p). My strategy of 0 entries the first 2 rounds and stealing all prizes in the last round has been sniffed out though - so it's once again very competitive.
Yeah - Skull is some of the best $15 I ever spent. The discs are very well made and have great/fun artwork. Simple simple mechanism and when you play with really good bluffers - it's great fun.
You are right on Splendor and the quality of the chips. I will gladly pay a premium for quality components. I wish more games had the option of premium or budget edition.
Quilt Show is incredibly fun and has a lot more strategy (2-4p). My strategy of 0 entries the first 2 rounds and stealing all prizes in the last round has been sniffed out though - so it's once again very competitive.
Yeah - Skull is some of the best $15 I ever spent. The discs are very well made and have great/fun artwork. Simple simple mechanism and when you play with really good bluffers - it's great fun.
You are right on Splendor and the quality of the chips. I will gladly pay a premium for quality components. I wish more games had the option of premium or budget edition.