Brony discussion split

[AppleQueso]

Jesus christ Dave do I look like I have a degree in media criticism? Of all the shit in my life do you really think I'm particularly clamoring to be put on trial for what friggin' cartoons I like?

I'm not going to be able to give you an answer that satisfies you on that level, not for this show, and not for any other show I happen to like.

Nah TSTR, men obsessing over a little girl cartoon is definitely weird.

I can't help but notice that this whole controversy always comes down to gender roles, namely the idea that some things are only for women and men are "weird" for liking them. The age thing is a façade, few bronies are actually "grown ass men" in the first place and if it were actually about age, perhaps we would actually see any complaints about older women liking the show.

It's not like Pokémon or Final Fantasy are much more "mature", after all

Anyways, the show itself isn't great but it has some interesting angles that make it stand out compared to its rivals. It's a better animated, better written show that doesn't talk down to its audience and has a stronger characterization than usual. Most similar TV shows tend to rely on extremely tired stock characters dating to The Honeymooners so the postmodernist, character-driven My Little Pony stands out a lot. It's certainly a lot better than dreck like Pepper Ann or Recess that was around in the 90s even if it's nowhere as good as Invader Zim or Ren & Stimpy.

It resonates a lot with kids 12-15, just like Minecraft or Slender do. I think that's pretty noteworthy.

Was this post not any sort of attempt at explaining what appeal it might have?

Hell it's on Netflix, you can always binge watch a couple seasons and maybe try and suss out any potential appeal for yourself.

[jp1]

Do you often find it necessary to explain your interests to people in order to be treated with dignity? Here's an answer, it's none of your business why they like it. Pretty simple, right?

If my interests were constantly suspected of being tied to pedophilia and/or poor mental development I would be chomping at the bit (a pun!) to explain them to people.

Well, if you would be, then it must be the right choice for everyone. Maybe they don't care to try and explain themselves to a hostile group of people with predetermined stereotypes, going as far as to assume pedophilia. Truthfully, I don't understand the appeal either, it doesn't undermine my ability to respect the people who like it up until they give a reason not to.

Watch MLP all day, wear a costume, collect toys, go to conventions, role play with other *adult* MLP Bronies, it's all good...none of my business.

Molest children, then we have a problem.

You can't look at a group of people because of one interest (unless that interest is pedophilia) and determine for yourself that they are sick and perverted, mentally stunted, pedophiles. That's prejudice my friend.

Also, WTF does poor mental development have to do with anything? That's an excuse to judge someone? Come on dude.

[dsheinem]

Jesus christ Dave do I look like I have a degree in media criticism? Of all the shit in my life do you really think I'm particularly clamoring to be put on trial for what friggin' cartoons I like?

I'm not going to be able to give you an answer that satisfies you on that level, not for this show, and not for any other show I happen to like.

Right, and I don't expect you to, tbh. I certainly don't want to cause you stress over it. But you offered an explanation that didn't really tell me much that answered my questions. My larger point is that it is always very useful for ANY community of people who are persecuted unfairly to BETTER explain the nuances of their identity/community to outsiders so as to dispel unfair stereotypes. I don't see Bronys doing that.

Anyways, the show itself isn't great but it has some interesting angles that make it stand out compared to its rivals. It's a better animated, better written show that doesn't talk down to its audience and has a stronger characterization than usual. Most similar TV shows tend to rely on extremely tired stock characters dating to The Honeymooners so the postmodernist, character-driven My Little Pony stands out a lot. It's certainly a lot better than dreck like Pepper Ann or Recess that was around in the 90s even if it's nowhere as good as Invader Zim or Ren & Stimpy.

It resonates a lot with kids 12-15, just like Minecraft or Slender do. I think that's pretty noteworthy.

Was this post not any sort of attempt at explaining what appeal it might have?

Hell it's on Netflix, you can always binge watch a couple seasons and maybe try and suss out any potential appeal for yourself.

I didn't see that post b/c it was in a larger discussion about gender that to me is not really worth engaging in as a useful starting place. There's some more clarification here, but I still see a huge part of the answer being about the relationship of the show to the target audience and other shows aimed at them. What about the show is postmodernist? And didn't dun just explain that there are a bunch of "stock characters" that have set, well worn interests, range, etc.?

[dsheinem]

Do you often find it necessary to explain your interests to people in order to be treated with dignity? Here's an answer, it's none of your business why they like it. Pretty simple, right?

If my interests were constantly suspected of being tied to pedophilia and/or poor mental development I would be chomping at the bit (a pun!) to explain them to people.

Well, if you would be, then it must be the right choice for everyone. Maybe they don't care to try and explain themselves to a hostile group of people with predetermined stereotypes, going as far as to assume pedophilia. Truthfully, I don't understand the appeal either, it doesn't undermine my ability to respect the people who like it up until they give a reason not to.

Watch MLP all day, wear a costume, collect toys, go to conventions, role play with other *adult* MLP Bronies, it's all good...none of my business.

Molest children, then we have a problem.

You can't look at a group of people because of one interest (unless that interest is pedophilia) and determine for yourself that they are sick and perverted, mentally stunted, pedophiles. That's prejudice my friend.

Also, WTF does poor mental development have to do with anything? That's an excuse to judge someone? Come on dude.

Just to clarify yet again, I DON'T think that Bronys are mentally stunted, pedos, etc. At all. (Or, at least, I have no reason to think they are any moreso than the rest of the population.)

BUT, they DO have this stereotyping issue as a fairly big part of their image. It sucks. It is stupid. When someone says "those bronys are a bunch of mental midgets" I want to be able to explain to them that "NO! They aren't! Here's what you are missing about the show and/or the community..."

I HAVE watched the show. I CAN'T see an answer to that question for myself. So I am left with "just let them be and practice tolerance" which is not exactly a way to impart any kind of understanding...

[jp1]

Just to clarify yet again, I DON'T think that Bronys are mentally stunted, pedos, etc. At all. (Or, at least, I have no reason to think they are any moreso than the rest of the population.)

BUT, they DO have this stereotyping issue as a fairly big part of their image. It sucks. It is stupid. When someone says "those bronys are a bunch of mental midgets" I want to be able to explain to them that "NO! They aren't! Here's what you are missing about the show and/or the community..."

I HAVE watched the show. I CAN'T see an answer to that question for myself. So I am left with "just let them be and practice tolerance" which is not exactly a way to impart any kind of understanding...

Gotcha. I must have missed this being explained. Sorry Dave, my bad.

[Luke]

Yeah, Dave isn't being hostile at all. All he is asking is an adult to explain why they like the MLP show and all he is getting in response is basically "because". I'd also like to know why, as it has somewhat of a cult following.

[irixith]

My larger point is that it is always very useful for ANY community of people who are persecuted unfairly to BETTER explain the nuances of their identity/community to outsiders so as to dispel unfair stereotypes. I don't see Bronys doing that.

An excellent point...and if no-one is able to offer any reasonable explanation, it falls to us to watch enough of the show to try and figure it out...which I've gone and done.

It seems to me that MLP has six "main" characters: Applejack, Fluttershy, Pinkie Pie, Rainbow Dash, Rarity & Twilight Sparkle, and I can start to see why there's an appeal by examining just these characters. Let's look at them in order:

Applejack: She is proud, headstrong, and hard-working, as well as a very loyal friend. She has trouble asking for help.

Fluttershy: As the name suggests, she is painfully shy, and a scaredy-cat. She is scared of failing at things in front of her friends, but is exceedingly kind -- moreso than the rest of them.

Pinkie Pie: Apparently is great at throwing parties. She is the class clown. Hyper, talks a lot of nonsense, gregarious, yet insecure and doubts herself.

Rainbow Dash: She's super self-confident and brash. Is a bit of a prankster...and likes to read, but doesn't want to be thought of as a nerd because of it.

Rarity: She's the preener -- very clean, likes to look pretty, will avoid activities that interfere with those desires. She's the decorator, the fashionista, and a bit of a show-off, loves to be in the spotlight.

Twilight Sparkle: Bookworm. She is the teacher of the group, the organized and calm-under pressure one.

There's a dragon character too, called "Spike" who seems to be a main character too. He would definitely tie into a greater discussion surrounding gender, as he's defensive about his perceived masculinity. He's sarcastic, a bit greedy, but playful and fun.

These are not your typical one-dimensional characters in your average show aimed at kids, much like other cartoons that have transcended the adult-child divide. (Aforementioned Spongebob, Powerpuff Girls, Invader Zim, etc) The more I watch the show, the more developed each character's personality becomes. There are archetypes that I'm sure must resonate with people, male or female. I mean really, who hasn't known or known of a super-self confident, outgoing person with an interest in doing something seen as stereotypically nerdy and struggling to find acceptance amongst their mixed peer groups? It's not typically the type of ground the average cartoon covers from episode to episode. In some cartoons there might be a single episode where some moral/ethical issue is tackled, but I can think of very few where the characters actually grow and develop their personality traits over time. The dialogue is actually fairly clever...for example, Applejack is the name of a drink in the adult world. When Applejack gets shrunk in one of the episodes, someone calls her "Apple Teeny". (Arr, Arr.) That's the kind of multiple layering that ups a show into the universal appeal territory, if you can get past the saccharine presentation of it all.

Am I helping at all?

[jp1]

Yeah, Dave isn't being hostile at all. All he is asking is an adult to explain why they like the MLP show and all he is getting in response is basically "because". I'd also like to know why, as it has somewhat of a cult following.

He has received a little more than "because". As you can see I just apologized to him for the misunderstanding. In any case, do you have a well thought out and detailed description for everything you like? Maybe, "I just enjoy it" is the explanation.

When you get put on the spot I don't see you writing a novella to explain yourself. In fact you usually make some quick pissy remark and then ignore it altogether, other than to make a snarky offhanded comment here and there in the following weeks.

[jp1]

Thanks irixith, that should put this to bed.

[dsheinem]

Am I helping at all?

A bit, yes. I think comparing the show to other "universal" kids shows is a good starting point and pointing to things like "jokes that adults would get" which are almost always present in those shows is a more specific form of support. So yes, your post is a good start.

What it doesn't explain, of course, is what the show does better than some of the other kinds of things you mentioned...specifically to the extent that rabid fandom has developed around it.

I did some of my own digging, too, after my last post. Has anyone read this?



the follow up came out yesterday...




They aren't from an academic press and the writer seems to be a brony, but I wonder if there are some of the kinds of arguments I am interested in therein. If not, other suggestions for places to read up on the topic?

EDIT: This is good, too: http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservatio ... kurt-baer/

" While it is both productive and interesting to look at the ways that bronies are resisting gender norms, it is also very easy for academics to fall into the trap of casting everything in that light, limiting the rich and complex social interactions of bronies to a romanticized narrative about bronies rising up together and resisting the gender stereotypes of larger society."