underground gamer is offline for good

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Menegrothx
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Re: underground gamer is offline for now

Post by Menegrothx »

dsheinem wrote: Who the hell are you to pretend to guess the mind of copyright holders? Stop pretending you are taking the moral high ground just because you think you aren't costing companies any sales by pirating something that you don't think they care about. You're just as "in the wrong" as someone downloading a game on release day, so don't pretend otherwise.
Copyright holders in many cases had nothing to do with the actual creation process of the game and therefore don't deserve any money. And implying that game developers that have gone defunct over a decade ago are loosing sales if you pirate a product that hasn't been sold in stores nor anywhere else for over 15 years is going full retard^2.

No one is entitled to experiencing any given old game but the preservation of video games and video game culture is far more important for the industry than theoretical/imaginary profits.
For example think of a game like Panzer Dragoon Saga. Widely regarded as one of the best JRPGs of all time (not top 5, but top 20-top 30 league). It's an unique game, no other game like it exists. Only something like 30 000 English copies were ever printed. The original developers still exist but the original source code has been lost.
Which is more important, that those lucky 30 000 (probably less, as many copies have been lost/destroyed over the years) are the only ones who have the right to experience the game? Even if you pay 400 dollars and buy the game from eBay, it's still accounts in the eyes of the publisher/developer to same as pirating the game since they aren't getting a penny from that, the only difference being that then you'll have the legal right to play the game.

Simply put video games will have a brighter future if young&poor people are allowed to experience old video games they other wise could never play.

Services like GOG are helping the situation, but there still is a huge number of great old games that are otherwise unavailable to modern gamers. Experiencing through these games not only helps to improve people's life quality, but also helps to broaden the minds of people who've never experienced games made in such style before. Some of those young people will go on to program and design games in the future, and having a broader view of the potential of video games will help them to make those future games better.

There's a huge number of great, highly regarded, well designed games that many modern gamers, and gamers in general, haven't played simply because they for various reasons sold poorly when they were released and are now rare and expensive, are available only on unpopular/obscure platforms and/or are hard to run on modern computers. So many people stick with popular games and well recognized franchises, which is a problem because 1. many games that deserve exposure and to be played never get the exposure and recognition they should have 2. many people miss out on experiences that would broaden their gaming tastes and 3. it's less likely that those old classics and hidden gems with get spiritual successors, sequels or that they'll otherwise influence future games in some way. Many games only become popular well after they've stopped printing the game, and when finally there is a much larger pool of people who'd like to buy the game, it's too late and only a very limited amount of copies exists.

I don't have a problem with spending 200 dollars on a Japan exclusive Sega Saturn game or filling my room with old computers and consoles but you can't expect every one to do the same. And besides that there's the fact that there simply isn't enough old hardware to go around. Old hardware and games won't last forever for that matter. So if you believe that unless a game gets officially re-released, the amount of people who should have the right to play through old games should be limited to those who own a physical copy of the game, it means that these games will have a limited audience. There are a lot more people and gamers in this world nowadays than there were 20-30 years ago, and a game that sold poorly(&was poorly marketed) and had an audience of 100 000 people might have a potential audience of 1 000 000 these days. But those 900 000 people who would also like to play through the game are out of luck.

If you look at the game library of C64 or a similar platform, you can be pretty sure that 97% of those games will never ever be re-released on GOG/Steam. Should those games be lost forever? Many of the cassette tapes and floppies are starting to die from old age, most kids and even a large part of the retro gamer community could never even imagine going through the trouble of learning how to use a C64 let alone buying one. Many of the games were made by independent developers that have been dead for over two decades.
MrPopo wrote: I'd like to emphasize the bolded point. He's not saying don't download. He's saying stop bullshitting about the consequences and morality of it.
The thing is that there are no negative consequences nor moral issues involved as long as the game isn't re-released. As soon as game gets released in GOG/Steam/PSN/XBLA/Wii Ware (or physically on a compilation disc), that's the route you should use. So no, I'm not
just as "in the wrong" as someone downloading a game on release day
when I have no option. If I download a game that's just been released, it means I wont pay for it and the developer looses money. But if I download a game I would have no way of obtaining otherwise, the developer doesn't loose any money because there is no place where I could legally obtain the product in the first place. The act remains the same, but the difference is that you have the choice of paying the developer when the game is new and in stores, while you have no option when you're trying to buy an obscure DOS game made in the early 1990s.

Yes, like I said, the act itself is still illegal, but ask any game developer what do they think of young people going out of their way with DOSbox and stuff like that so they could experience a game they made 15-30 years ago, and the reaction will most certainly be almost universally positive, save for those people who did a bad job and are ashamed of it.
It boils down to whether you think that victimless and ultimately harmless crimes for the sake of knowledge and self-improvement are immoral. We need more sites like GOG so people can legally compensate the developers of these old games for their efforts.
My WTB thread (Sega CD/Saturn games)
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
dsheinem
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Re: underground gamer is offline for now

Post by dsheinem »

Menegrothx wrote:many good points.
You might be surprised to learn that I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote, which is why "in the wrong" was put in quotes in my previous post. Piracy is "in the wrong" from a legal standpoint in all instances. Period. Morally, things do get dicier...they aren't as black and white and clear as you seem to suggest.

Specifically, here's the sticking point:
but ask any game developer what do they think of young people going out of their way with DOSbox and stuff like that so they could experience a game they made 15-30 years ago, and the reaction will most certainly be almost universally positive, save for those people who did a bad job and are ashamed of it.
This still boils down to you playing arbiter of "would X person care if I violated the law to access their stuff?" You may be right that most don't, but unless you KNOW that they don't you are doing something both illegal and, potentially, immoral. Some err on the side of not doing anything illegal (whether moral or not), some err on the side of doing something illegal if it is demonstrably moral (e.g. the rights holder has endorsed piracy), others do what you do (clearly illegal but likely moral), and some disregard morality and legality all together. My point was that youc an play the "this is justified" or "not justified" game all day and you won't get anywhere because some people will see morality as defined by law, others by circumstances, and others will see neither.
It boils down to whether you think that victimless and ultimately harmless crimes for the sake of knowledge and self-improvement are immoral.
While I agree piracy has its place and would like to see laws change to protect game preservation, I don't know that downloading any/every game, whether available presently or not, is a "victimless and ultimately harmless crimes for the sake of knowledge and self-improvement". Sometimes it is just "I don't want to track down original hardware and software, get it working, and go the legal and harder route."
Ivo
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Re: underground gamer is offline for now

Post by Ivo »

It is worth stressing a point that was made in passing already: when you are playing older games for free, you are spending time that you might otherwise be using for playing newer games that you would pay for.

I don't criticise people for only downloading older stuff, and I disagree slightly with Dave about it being just the same as pirating the newer stuff - legally it may even be the same, but ethically I really don't think it is the same.

I think ethically it is different.
One option is you didn't support the industry then, the games got made, and you enjoy them now.
The other is you don't support the industry now and enjoying the current games now.

That said, I agree that people should still acknowledge what they are doing for what it is and understand that by doing so they don't support the industry now (which in fact might be the goal, for some).
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