The Wrestling Thread

[Gamerforlife]

But it's got to happen soon, right? I mean WWE creative knows the fans want the heel turn that badly. The Kane feud hinted wildly at the notion of Cena 'embracing the hate' and becoming a heel. Now the Rock is flat out telling Cena to his face that the fans are sick and tired of having his character shoved down their throats every week. It just sounds like it's building up to a big Cena heel turn at Wrestlemania.

Logically, you'd think so, but it's almost like the WWE LIKES their top babyface being hated. They should have turned him heel back when people first starting booing him ages ago. To this day I simply don't understand why he's been pushed as their top guy when he's the ONLY one of the main event guys for the past couple of years who is completely incapable of getting a crowd to universally approve of him. It's one of the oddest things I've seen in the company's history. It's like they've been in denial with this guy for years now. Somebody high up on the food chain must really like Cena

They've got Punk now, turn Cena heel already. Punk will be your new top babyface. He's better than Cena in every way and I'd challenge ANYONE to dispute that.

[Rurouni_Fencer]

Definitely agree with the Punk assessment. He's a much better face than Cena. However, I've always looked at Cena's crowd reaction as the direct opposite of Austin's back in '97. Back then it was heel applauded as a face. With Cena, it's now face derided as a heel. So that dynamic isn't exactly new, it's just been flipped.
Still, I'm with you, Gamer, in that I just don't get why they keep backing such a controversial character as their main attraction...

[Gamerforlife]

Definitely agree with the Punk assessment. He's a much better face than Cena. However, I've always looked at Cena's crowd reaction as the direct opposite of Austin's back in '97. Back then it was heel applauded as a face. With Cena, it's now face derided as a heel. So that dynamic isn't exactly new, it's just been flipped.
Still, I'm with you, Gamer, in that I just don't get why they keep backing such a controversial character as their main attraction...

I see what's your saying, but the thing is, once Austin went face he'd have everybody in an arena cheering for him. The mixed reactions Cena gets just tells me that both him and the WWE are doing something wrong. I feel like they use that "controversal superstar" thing as just a way to hide the fact that both him AND the WWE no longer know what it takes to create a top, babyface superstar that you can put the whole company behind

What bugs me is that they just don't give anyone else a chance. Punk is an exception, but I feel like he forcibly made the company push him last year, to the point where they even let him go over Cena more than once. It's rare that they do that for anyone though. Any guy who gets pushed sooner or later gets knocked down a peg or two by Cena to ensure he's still on top

[Rurouni_Fencer]

But I feel they just need to go back to the basics. In order to have any solid babyface, you need a really despicable heel to compliment them. Look at what got Hogan over - Andre, Piper, Macho Man. Better still - (and I always like to fall back on this example,) take the Steamboat/Savage feud. Savage made the crowd despise him. When he crushed the throat of Steamboat with that elbow drop, man, EVERYBODY wanted to kill Savage. That made them get behind Ricky so much more! Also, who can forget Sgt. Slaughter's infamous heel turn as an Iraqi general. He turned his back on not just Hogan and the fans, but all of America, (so much so that he actually received death threats on his home phone.) Hogan was the biggest face EVER for that feud because it took a heel to get him there.
THAT's what the WWE and Cena need to realize. A face is only as good as the heel that lifts him up.

[Gamerforlife]

But I feel they just need to go back to the basics. In order to have any solid babyface, you need a really despicable heel to compliment them. Look at what got Hogan over - Andre, Piper, Macho Man. Better still - (and I always like to fall back on this example,) take the Steamboat/Savage feud. Savage made the crowd despise him. When he crushed the throat of Steamboat with that elbow drop, man, EVERYBODY wanted to kill Savage. That made them get behind Ricky so much more! Also, who can forget Sgt. Slaughter's infamous heel turn as an Iraqi general. He turned his back on not just Hogan and the fans, but all of America, (so much so that he actually received death threats on his home phone.) Hogan was the biggest face EVER for that feud because it took a heel to get him there.
THAT's what the WWE and Cena need to realize. A face is only as good as the heel that lifts him up.

Yeah, they are not good at making good heels these days. They have a bad habit of making them appear so weak compared to the faces. That's why I liked the Mark Henry push, though he's not looking quite so bad ass lately. Creating genuine hate towards the heels is something they don't do well either. Jericho had a great moment with Shawn Michaels when he bashed his head into a monitor and lead the audience to believe that he had injured HBK's eye. That guy is so good at drawing heat as a heel. Here's a good example copy and pasted from another site

"Chris Jericho received praise for his heel promo at the RAW live event in Los Angeles at the Staples Center this weekend. Jericho spoke in Spanish some during the promo and got the fans so upset that they threw toilet paper at him. Jericho worked the toilet paper into the promo and really worked the crowd. Jericho wrote the following on Twitter

"Let me be clear on this. I don't wanna see any more toilet paper thrown at me in the ring again! It's disrespectful!!"

I've seen fans ATTACK Jericho in public. That's how good a heel he is. Another great heel is Bully Ray. He did a promo early in his career that almost caused a riot. That's REAL heel heat.

[retrosportsgamer]

But I feel they just need to go back to the basics. In order to have any solid babyface, you need a really despicable heel to compliment them

The problem we have today is a lot of their heels end up being chicken-shit Honkey Tonk Man ripoffs because that's how uncreative the writers are in having these guys keep their heat. A badass heel will turn face pretty quickly nowadays also (see Punk this past summer) as the fans love those types (we all do). The booking team even had to change up Mark Henry's character after he started getting cheers for being so badass against Orton (he started walking out - the entire Show feud essentially).

I'm really hoping Cena embraces the hate and wrestles the Mania match as a true heel (like how the Rock did against Hogan once the Toronto crowd turned on him). It's going to be hostile and just flat-out awesome. If there was ever a time to really do it, it's then. Lets just hope they don't feel the need for Vince to come out with a chair to get the turn over.

[BurningDoom]

But I feel they just need to go back to the basics. In order to have any solid babyface, you need a really despicable heel to compliment them. Look at what got Hogan over - Andre, Piper, Macho Man. Better still - (and I always like to fall back on this example,) take the Steamboat/Savage feud. Savage made the crowd despise him. When he crushed the throat of Steamboat with that elbow drop, man, EVERYBODY wanted to kill Savage. That made them get behind Ricky so much more! Also, who can forget Sgt. Slaughter's infamous heel turn as an Iraqi general. He turned his back on not just Hogan and the fans, but all of America, (so much so that he actually received death threats on his home phone.) Hogan was the biggest face EVER for that feud because it took a heel to get him there.
THAT's what the WWE and Cena need to realize. A face is only as good as the heel that lifts him up.

Yeah, they are not good at making good heels these days. They have a bad habit of making them appear so weak compared to the faces. That's why I liked the Mark Henry push, though he's not looking quite so bad ass lately. Creating genuine hate towards the heels is something they don't do well either. Jericho had a great moment with Shawn Michaels when he bashed his head into a monitor and lead the audience to believe that he had injured HBK's eye. That guy is so good at drawing heat as a heel. Here's a good example copy and pasted from another site

"Chris Jericho received praise for his heel promo at the RAW live event in Los Angeles at the Staples Center this weekend. Jericho spoke in Spanish some during the promo and got the fans so upset that they threw toilet paper at him. Jericho worked the toilet paper into the promo and really worked the crowd. Jericho wrote the following on Twitter

"Let me be clear on this. I don't wanna see any more toilet paper thrown at me in the ring again! It's disrespectful!!"

I've seen fans ATTACK Jericho in public. That's how good a heel he is. Another great heel is Bully Ray. He did a promo early in his career that almost caused a riot. That's REAL heel heat.

It's crazy you guys are discussing this. I was just thinking about just this today.

I hate how most heels today are all sneaky, try to get out of matches, try to avoid fights, and just come off looking like cowards. What happened to strong and arrogant heels like Ric Flair, Jake the Snake Roberts, HHH, Undertaker, Razor Ramone, Rowdy Roddy Piper, etc., etc.? I want to see a heel that actually appears as if he's capable of giving the face a run for his money. Bully Ray and The Undertaker are the only ones that come off the top of my head as fitting this profile in mainstream wrestling today. Oh yeah, and Austin Aries in TNA's X-Division, who I'm really liking.

[Gamerforlife]

But I feel they just need to go back to the basics. In order to have any solid babyface, you need a really despicable heel to compliment them. Look at what got Hogan over - Andre, Piper, Macho Man. Better still - (and I always like to fall back on this example,) take the Steamboat/Savage feud. Savage made the crowd despise him. When he crushed the throat of Steamboat with that elbow drop, man, EVERYBODY wanted to kill Savage. That made them get behind Ricky so much more! Also, who can forget Sgt. Slaughter's infamous heel turn as an Iraqi general. He turned his back on not just Hogan and the fans, but all of America, (so much so that he actually received death threats on his home phone.) Hogan was the biggest face EVER for that feud because it took a heel to get him there.
THAT's what the WWE and Cena need to realize. A face is only as good as the heel that lifts him up.

Yeah, they are not good at making good heels these days. They have a bad habit of making them appear so weak compared to the faces. That's why I liked the Mark Henry push, though he's not looking quite so bad ass lately. Creating genuine hate towards the heels is something they don't do well either. Jericho had a great moment with Shawn Michaels when he bashed his head into a monitor and lead the audience to believe that he had injured HBK's eye. That guy is so good at drawing heat as a heel. Here's a good example copy and pasted from another site

"Chris Jericho received praise for his heel promo at the RAW live event in Los Angeles at the Staples Center this weekend. Jericho spoke in Spanish some during the promo and got the fans so upset that they threw toilet paper at him. Jericho worked the toilet paper into the promo and really worked the crowd. Jericho wrote the following on Twitter

"Let me be clear on this. I don't wanna see any more toilet paper thrown at me in the ring again! It's disrespectful!!"

I've seen fans ATTACK Jericho in public. That's how good a heel he is. Another great heel is Bully Ray. He did a promo early in his career that almost caused a riot. That's REAL heel heat.

It's crazy you guys are discussing this. I was just thinking about just this today.

I hate how most heels today are all sneaky, try to get out of matches, try to avoid fights, and just come off looking like cowards. What happened to strong and arrogant heels like Ric Flair, Jake the Snake Roberts, HHH, Undertaker, Razor Ramone, Rowdy Roddy Piper, etc., etc.? I want to see a heel that actually appears as if he's capable of giving the face a run for his money. Bully Ray and The Undertaker are the only ones that come off the top of my head as fitting this profile in mainstream wrestling today. Oh yeah, and Austin Aries in TNA's X-Division, who I'm really liking.

Do you remember the Batista/Cena feud where Batista told Cena he couldn't beat him? He came out and said that Cena had never beaten him in a match and also pointed out that he was the guy who had put Cena out of action. After that promo, Cena was damn near speechless. In fact, he didn't say a thing if I remember correctly. The announcers and the crowd all seemed shocked. Cena later admitted in a backstage interview that he had nothing to say because everything that Batista said was true.

That was a beautiful moment and one of the few times where Cena was used properly. THAT is how you get a heel over. When he can just punk out a babyface like that, brilliant! Sometimes you HAVE to make a babyface look weak to get the audience to care. It's weird that Vince doesn't get that when you see it in practically every form of entertainment out there. People want to root for the underdog. They want the heel to be the dominant guy so they can cheer when the face puts him in his place. Vince has such a weird, backward view of things. He needs to step out of his bubble and take a look at the real world

[Rurouni_Fencer]

^ ...and unfortunately, we won't see this until Vince relinquishes his power to HHH, because while McMahon-child doesn't quite get that his target audience is slightly above dick and fart jokes, HHH understands the business as a performer, AND a businessman.

[pakopako]

Logically, you'd think so, but it's almost like the WWE LIKES their top babyface being hated.

Hey, any reaction is reaction. The worst thing for a performer to face is dead silence.

If WWE is trying to pull a HHH (Hollywood Hulk Hogan), then the only time they'd pull the trigger on a heel turn is when the majority of the crowd begin to cheer for Cena as a face again. When you want to see the Hero save the day the most, that's when the Heel turns.