Together Retro: First-Person Dungeon Crawlers

[Exhuminator]

Proud of my homies Prfsnl_gmr and Sarge for giving FromSoftware FPDCs some love. I can't imagine either of you being disappointed should you finish the experiences. You're playing the games of kings gentlemen.

Unfortunately I didn't have much time for gaming today. I'm in Atlanta on business and was stuck out tonight with work associates, but I did manage to squeeze in some Orcs & Elves II here at the hotel. It's an old mobile game, but I found a good emulator to remedy that. (Cellphones have been around so long, that now I'm emulating a retro mobile game on a modern smartphone.) O&E2 is definitely fun so far, albeit very similar to the first. So far it's more like an expansion pack than a full blown sequel. More of a good thing isn't bad though.

[Sarge]

Managed to slide in a bunch more time with KF4. I realize that sometimes, games of this magnitude bother me because I'm the type of person that doesn't make maps. I generally can keep most of it in my head, but it's proving more challenging with this one. I'm doing okay with it, but I'm sure I'm missing things in each area. I'm going to have to backtrack at some point; I didn't even get the Engineer's Key, and I'm pretty sure I could have gotten that a long time ago.

I've beaten up on a giant snake lady, and am now in a mine cart area. Whee! Also just hit an area with purple skulls. I died there, and had to re-do some stuff, but I was ready for 'em the second time. I also found a crystal in an area of sunken ruins, where I got to employ my water amulet to extend my breathing time. There's also a necklace in an area fairly close to there in a hidden wall that lets you actually see said walls while equipped. That should be fun.

Still no idea how far out I am. I've peeked at a guide a bit, but almost didn't touch it other than to make sure I wasn't missing something important today. I'm enjoying the game, but I'm definitely going to need a break from FPDCs after this.

[crazythink4]

Wow, people are finishing their first games already... Feeling a bit behind the curve, but is all good! Keeps me motivated!

Had a bit of a good run at Shining in the Darkness over the weekend. I must say, it took me a while to get through the Japanese exposition in the very beginning (still quite the newbie). I've spoilered discussion around this for those who aren't interested, since this is a TR thread, not "watch crazy grapple with a new language thread."

About a decade ago, people would have said that playing a game without a lot of kanji is easier because it's hard to know how to pronounce the words, and you have to learn how to use a kanji dictionary. I feel like this advice is sorely outdated these days. Now, with things like Google Translate, you can take a photo with your phone and the app will convert it into a character that you can plug into a dictionary. Also, because Japanese has a more limited set of syllables, you'll often see a word translate to multiple meanings and it can be tough to guess the correct one. I've already seen Google Translate get this wrong a couple of times over the course of this game.

Anyway, I was struggling because I really wanted to get into the game, but translating and reading the text was slow going. Eventually, I stumbled upon what I believe is the most ideal solution. Shining in the Darkness already has an official English translation, so I found a transcription online to follow along with. I played through, understanding as much as I could without doing a lot of look-ups and took photos of the screens I didn't completely understand. This allows me to work through them on the bus to work offline, but also took the pressure off so that I could enjoy the game later. It turns out that you can comprehend a lot more easily when you aren't anxious to get on with the game!

Onto the actual game itself, it's a fairly light and easy dungeon crawler, although there may be easier ones out there now. Story-wise, the game has almost a Disney feel to it and it takes itself a little seriously, but not too much. It's a basic "save the princess" story, though I'm sensing a twist coming (with a couple of ideas of what it might be, but we'll see how accurate I am).

Dying comes only with the penalty of losing half of your gold, which is pretty standard for JRPGs that allow you to continue after death. It's slightly grindy, but not anywhere near the level of the Etrian Odyssey or early D&D-based games. One thing that did catch me (and seems obvious in retrospect) is that not all characters can equip all of the gear. I was misled because the hero starts out as a solitary character near the beginning, and so it never occurred to me that he couldn't use all of the available gear. This led to a bit of wasted gold since inventory space is limited, but nothing too painful. To solve this, I now bring along a handy item guide to tell me what's equippable by whom (I presume this would have been in the manual or on paper with the original game).

As for progress, it's still pretty early, but I managed to beat the first boss, the Saber Crab (Kaiser Crab in English). It coughed up the princess's tiara upon dying, confirming that she is somewhere in the labyrinth!</shock!> I have yet to take it back into town for the next big set of exposition, but I plan to do that tonight.

Anyway, a little surprised no one has posted anything like this yet, but it seems in the spirit, so here you go!

I looked at a map online to get a sense of how big the map was and where on the paper I should put the entrance, but otherwise doing this the old fashioned way. (I hate having to redraw a map because I guessed the starting point wrong and then run off the edge.) Please forgive my crappy Japanese writing!

Anyway, more to come as I delve further... Still, if people are looking for a gentle introduction to grid-based dungeon crawlers, this is one I can recommend!

[noiseredux]

My Morrowind still hasn't shipped. I might just buy a digital copy at this point ...

[Sload Soap]

My Morrowind still hasn't shipped. I might just buy a digital copy at this point ...

To be fair, the way Xbox does its back compat, that's what you get anyway, though I imagine you get the GOTY even with a standard disc.

Funny thing about Morrowind on Xbox One: on my standard X1 it plays in 4:3 with seemingly no option to change it. Anyone else tried it? Is it something obvious I'm missing.

[pierrot]

I'm the type of person that doesn't make maps. I generally can keep most of it in my head,[...].

This is me, too. I sometimes think of my brain as a mini-cartographer, because I rarely ever get lost, but I fear some of the later areas of Arcus, (which does have a mini-map at least) just because there hasn't been much to work from in terms of points of interest.

Had a bit of a good run at Shining in the Darkness over the weekend. I must say, it took me a while to get through the Japanese exposition in the very beginning (still quite the newbie). I've spoilered discussion around this for those who aren't interested, since this is a TR thread, not "watch crazy grapple with a new language thread."

I'm a little confused, are you playing Shining and the Darkness? Is it like a convenience thing, where you happened to have a Japanese cartridge, and didn't want to bother getting one of the English releases? I don't mean to give you the fifth degree, or anything, I'm just kind of curious about the motivations here.

About a decade ago, people would have said that playing a game without a lot of kanji is easier because it's hard to know how to pronounce the words, and you have to learn how to use a kanji dictionary. I feel like this advice is sorely outdated these days.

It's a lot easier for me to play games that don't have limited character-sets due to memory constraints, or a target audience that's too young to read a lot of Kanji. I rely a bit more than I should on certain characters for meaning, and context, and reading a ton of hiragana is just slower. Usually because I have to do a lot more inferring of the delineation of different words. From watching a number of streamers, and things, this is an issue for native Japanese speakers, as well, though.

As for progress, it's still pretty early, but I managed to beat the first boss, the Saber Crab (Kaiser Crab in English). It coughed up the princess's tiara upon dying, confirming that she is somewhere in the labyrinth!</shock!> I have yet to take it back into town for the next big set of exposition, but I plan to do that tonight.

This is sounding like a fairly cool game. I know it has its proponents, but it's still not something I often hear people talking about, aside from some of those times when Shining Force comes up. I've been meaning to play it, and, like, everything else in the Shining series that isn't 1 or 2, for quite a while. Too bad it probably won't be this month either, but I'll be interested in your progress.

Please forgive my crappy Japanese writing!

Looks like a native Japanese person's hand writing. Could have fooled me.

[noiseredux]

My Morrowind still hasn't shipped. I might just buy a digital copy at this point ...

To be fair, the way Xbox does its back compat, that's what you get anyway, though I imagine you get the GOTY even with a standard disc.

Funny thing about Morrowind on Xbox One: on my standard X1 it plays in 4:3 with seemingly no option to change it. Anyone else tried it? Is it something obvious I'm missing.

I'm well aware, it's just it was about the same price either way. Unfortunately it's taken much longer to get here than I wanted, though I hate the idea of buying it twice now. So we'll see.

As far as aspect ratio I believe all on Xbox games play in their original 4:3 unless that specific game had a 16:9 option originally as well.

[crazythink4]

I'm a little confused, are you playing Shining and the Darkness? Is it like a convenience thing, where you happened to have a Japanese cartridge, and didn't want to bother getting one of the English releases? I don't mean to give you the fifth degree, or anything, I'm just kind of curious about the motivations here.

No complicated motivations. Trying to break into learning Japanese and I like to do things that accomplish several goals at once. Here, it’s 1) participate in TR, 2) learn and practice Japanese, and 3) Break into the Shining series.

Also, it seems like roughly half of the Shining games were never translated (tho I’m sure fan translations exist). It seemed like a natural fit.

I guess for the English release, they called it Shining in the Darkness because they thought it sounded better. I guess the player is the “Shining” and the baddie is “the Darkness”, so it does sound a bit cliche.

Anyway, if this Japanese talk is annoying people or derailing the thread too much, let me know and I’ll knock it off.

It's a lot easier for me to play games that don't have limited character-sets due to memory constraints, or a target audience that's too young to read a lot of Kanji. I rely a bit more than I should on certain characters for meaning, and context, and reading a ton of hiragana is just slower. Usually because I have to do a lot more inferring of the delineation of different words. From watching a number of streamers, and things, this is an issue for native Japanese speakers, as well, though.

Wow, that’s really interesting. Thanks for sharing, it makes me feel less bad about struggling through hiragana-only games.

This is sounding like a fairly cool game. I know it has its proponents, but it's still not something I often hear people talking about, aside from some of those times when Shining Force comes up. I've been meaning to play it, and, like, everything else in the Shining series that isn't 1 or 2, for quite a while. Too bad it probably won't be this month either, but I'll be interested in your progress.

Sure! After returning the ill-gotten tiara to the King, I learned that the temple/labyrinth was originally a proving ground for knights and that passing 4 trials is necessary to accessing the upper levels. I was handed a Dwarven key to access the previously locked doors to the caves of trials.

But first, the king’s court suggested that I gather some teammates, so I collected my companions: Marin the elf (Pyra in English) who is a magic user and Bilbo the hobbit (Milo in English) who is a classical D&D cleric who is decent in battle and can heal. However, they start at level 1 whereas my PC is level 9, so I’m up for some grinding to get them ready for the trials.

One thing I neglected to mention is in battle, enemies are clustered into groups and you only select which group you’re attacking (like in classic Wizardry). When your attack executes, it hits a random mob in the group. I know a lot of people dislike this setup because it limits player tactics, but I don’t mind it so much. Usually the game is balanced with this in mind (if it’s not a bastard game, anyway), so I just modify my strategy to account for this. However, it is slightly modern in that if an entire monster group is killed and you were set to attack it, it’ll select a different group for you rather than wasting your attack. So that reduces frustration too.

Looks like a native Japanese person's hand writing. Could have fooled me.

You’re too kind! I only see printed characters so I never know how sloppy I’m being. Thanks for the encouragement!

[MrPopo]

Shining in the Darkness's combat is actually quite well balanced. In general your main character will be able to one shot monsters when appropriately geared, while your other two combined will kill a monster. The game's random selection also tries to be intelligent; it knows how much HP a monster has and the damage range a character can do and will try and ensure a kill on every attack. However, because of that random damage range sometimes your two casters will split when they could have gotten a kill by combining.

I'd say your equipment priority should be weapons first, then get everyone's modified defense as high as possible. It's more important to have three people with decent defense than one person with high and two with low, so take that into account. Also, your casters have higher natural defense but can't use as good of armor, so focus on a character's current defense and how many points the upgrade would be, rather than the raw number of the upgrade.

Also, it seems like roughly half of the Shining games were never translated (tho I’m sure fan translations exist).

Shining Force III trilogy is the last of the worthwhile Shining games in my opinion; after that Camelot is no longer involved and the game falls off a cliff. So that leaves Gaiden Final Conflict and III pts 2 & 3 as the Japanese only good Shining games.

[Sarge]

Neo and EXA aren't bad at all, but they completely change the formula. Basically, if you liked Record of Lodoss War on Dreamcast, you'd like those titles.