The Comic Book Thread

[Forlorn Drifter]

Archie's dead, Thor is a woman and Captain America is now Afro-American!

If I were a cynic I'd say these were deliberate ploys to drum up sales that won't have any meaningful impact on the current continuity, have already been done before and will be forgotten about in a year. If I were a cynic, I'd say that.

How did they explain the Captain America deal? Or Thor, for that matter? I don't have anything against changing the characters, or introducing new similar characters, but I know a lot of people are upset in those cases due to them being well established characters.

Its kind of like a thread on comic vine, where they talked about the idea of a gay Spiderman. People weren't happy.


Also, what would be the cheapest place for trades? I've been keeping an eye open, but I haven't seen that many "good" places for it.

[Sload Soap]

Sam Wilson (The Falcon) is going to be taking Cap's place and Marvel haven't revealed who the new Thor is, though my guess is it's just Valkyrie. And though Archie was shot in that particular comic, it was a spin-off and he remains alive in the the main Archie line.

I have nothing against change or more diversity but it just obviously just headline grabbing. Whomever replaces Thor will not be Thor as it's a name not a title even if Marvel's editorial are selling it to people as such. It's also a bit sleezy how the idea for a female Thor came decades after the ideas for frog Thor and Horse headed alien Thor. I mean, Sam Wilson has already been Captain America briefly so that is not even a fresh idea. Why can't Falcon just run the team as he is with his own unique skills and abilities? Isn't a flying genius more useful than a guy who is good at throwing shields?

Positive change is things like Miles Morales replacing the Ultimate Spider-man. It has a sense of permanence and continuity of character. Miles embodies more of what it meant to be Peter Parker (great power, great responsibility) and isn't just a renting another hero's costume.

/Lack of permanence and obvious headline grabbing are not the same as diversification or changing the status quo. I fully expect that by the release of Avengers 2 these changes will have been reverted.

[marurun]

Actually, the Thor thing has been explained. Back in the day Thor faced off against an alien who was able to pick up his hammer and took on the aspect of Thor. Ultimately they made peace and teamed up and Odin rewarded the alien (Beta Ray Bill) with his own hammer. So while Thor Odinson is a powerful Asgardian, a lot of his additional power comes from the hammer, and anyone worthy can wield it to gain that power.

Now, Marvel has previewed that Thor Odinson basically becomes unworthy of the hammer, and loses the Thor abilities as he can no longer wield it. And as such, he is no longer Thor, but only Odinson. The woman who is able to lift the hammer becomes Thor.

I think there's a lot of potential there for a good story. As long as whoever the character is gets in a couple good years as Thor, I call it a win. Even if she ends up returning the hammer to Odinson, should he manage to redeem himself enough to become worthy again, Odin could conceivably make a new hammer or similar artifact for her so she can retain her power, just like he did for Beta Ray Bill.

The black Captain America makes sense to me, too. If Bucky Barnes can be Cap for a while, why can't Falcon?

Everything in comics is a gimmick to sell more books. If this gimmick happens to open up the audience as well, I'm all for it. I had a blast reading Captain Marvel (talk about a strong female character who doesn't need to be male-gaze sexualized to be awesome), and I actually want to take a crack at Ms. Marvel now that I've seen a few panels. That she's a Muslim-American isn't nearly as interesting to me as the fact that she's a 16 year old girl coming to terms with powers, and who gets to have a fangirl moment teaming up with Wolverine (even if I'm not crazy about Wolverine.)

[Sload Soap]

I am fully aware that whoever wields mjolnir receives the power of Thor and that is the set up to the new ongoing. I only meant that the female Thor's actual identity is unknown at this point. Jason Aaron has hinted that it is someone we already know, so I guessed at Valkyrie or maybe someone more unexpected like Carol Danvers or Jane Foster.

I'd also like to point out again that Thor is not a title given by the hammer, in the same manner that putting on Iron Man's armour doesn't make you Tony Stark. When Beta Ray Bill or Captain America wielded it they didn't literally become Thor, they just co-opted his powers. But this isn't the way this is being sold to people by Marvel.

"This is not She-Thor. This is not Lady Thor. This is not Thorita. This is THOR," writer Jason Aaron said. "This is the THOR of the Marvel Universe. But it's unlike any Thor we've ever seen before."

We know this isn't true though from Marvel's own release schedule. Thor himself will still be about albeit in a depowered form, so Marvel is just telling lies to bump up the interest.

Similarly I feel taking the Falcon and putting him in a frankly awful looking Captain America costume diminishes him as his own character. It kind of makes it seem like he was a side-kick all along; the Robin to Cap's Batman constantly being trained as a replacement. However I always saw them as equal partners. I like the Falcon but I like him as he is and as I said, there is little chance that his tenure as Cap will last longer than a year, if that.

Also, there is/was a black Captain America of sorts in Isaiah Bradley. His grandson Elijah was essentially a teenaged version of Cap and much more suited for a promotion to full time Captain America. But Elijah is criminally underused by Marvel and would grab fewer headlines, even though it would be a much more obvious and organic way to have an african-american Captain America.

And I'm not even going into the dodgy subtext behind forcefully depowering white male characters to elevate women and minorities. It's lazy at best and can be downright offensive at worst.

I am not saying any of these changes prevent good stories being told or that these are inherently going to be bad comics. Female Thor might be the biggest break out in years.

It's just that when you get down to it there isn't really much going on here. Instead of Marvel saying "Falcon is Avengers team leader and Valkyrie takes Thor's place as god of thunder" they are selling it as "THOR IS A WOMAN AND CAPTAIN AMERICA IS BLACK! EXCELSIOR!".

Marvel is selling a routine roster update as something more progressive and trailblazing than it is. If they spent half the time actually writing decent comics that they spend on coming up with gimmicky ways to market them, maybe they wouldn't have to resort to such cheap tricks.

Sorry to get all ranty, but it bugs me that in an age of massively heightened interest and acceptance of superhero characters, Marvel and DC's editors seem to have regressed back to using 90's sensationalism and faux diversification to push up sales. It's lazy, it's patronizing and, while well intentioned, only serves to highlight the troublesome nature of tokenism.

[Gunstar Green]

I'm fine with other characters taking up the hero mantles, but why Thor?

Thor isn't a super hero mantle, it's the dude's name. It would be like someone putting on an Iron Man suit and saying, "I'm Tony Stark."

I'm extra cynical about this because none of these changes ever really stick in the main continuity (as was said above, this is a routine roster update). They've been doing this since the freaking 80's when they made Iron Man a black guy so it's not like this is exactly new or progressive for comic books. Also why not give Rhodey the Iron Man mantle back for a while or at least give him a starring role in a comic book where he isn't a cyborg and doesn't suck.

[Luke]

The black Captain America makes sense to me, too. If Bucky Barnes can be Cap for a while, why can't Falcon?

Darn tootin'. Makes perfect sense for Falcon to fill in for Cap.

And who gives a care that Falcon, who will be Cap is black?

Reading the new Kirkman book Outcast, which is quite intriguing. Man, the success he's had at only 36 is astounding.

[marurun]

Well, it sounds like Marvel is changing Thor. In an interview, the title editor said, basically, Thor becomes merely Odinson. It's like, in this case, he is actually losing his first name. When Beta Ray Bill picked up the hammer it wasn't because Thor Odinson wasn't worthy. I don't know about the Cap occurrence. Marvel's argument here, I think, is that because Thor loses the ability to wield the hammer, he is no longer Thor.

I see your point about it being hype over what seems like a minor roster shake-up, but the comics industry is taking a lot of heat right now for lack of meaningful diversity, and now that Marvel is owned by Disney, Disney is interested in making sure things at least appear to be on the up-and-up. They don't want to pull a casting Capaldi as Dr. Who, here. (Mind you, I really like Capaldi, but Dr. Who needs a more fundamental shakeup, and he ain't it).

It may also be a chance to shine a light on a character who maybe doesn't get the attention they deserve. So even when the roster reverts, maybe this will have a lasting effect.

I am a little disappointed the new Thor will be a known entity, though. That's a waste of a good opportunity to introduce a new player.

[Forlorn Drifter]

I don't really mind it all, except for the fact of changing long established characters. In the case of say, Ghost Rider, which in the lore is someone who changes throughout time, its not that big of a deal. In the case of Captain America or Thor, its a bit different.

I think Marvel is much more into this than DC is. DC doesn't really change their characters much. I think the Batman group of comics is an example- they need a new character to appeal to a group, they try and make it. For example, Batwoman being a lesbian.

I understand why they do it, especially with the big ones like Marvel, I just think their going about it the wrong way.

I'd actually be interested in a reboot of Captain Confederacy, which is way different of a comic than you might expect. It wasn't from either of the big companies, of course, but it was an interesting read if nothing else. I've also, personally, have had some ideas for one called Rebel Rider, although I don't think I could get it to sell.

[Gunstar Green]

It may also be a chance to shine a light on a character who maybe doesn't get the attention they deserve. So even when the roster reverts, maybe this will have a lasting effect.

That's the best we can hope for and it has occasionally worked in the past, going back to my Iron Man example with Rhodey.

[Sload Soap]

Despite all I've said, if there is a chance of getting a decent Dr Strange ongoing I'll be happy. I also gather the Inhumans are getting pushed to the fore which is nice.