The downside to playing obscure games on retro systems...

[Jakanden]

I remember how we beat games before the internet... and how I try to still beat games.

PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT.

Where is the fun in a damn walkthrough!?

Practice only makes perfect when it's a matter of skill. When you've tried everything already, practice will never help you.

He speaks the truth

[Mozgus]

He speaks the truth

I dunno if I phrased that very well. What I meant, is if I am stuck in a game because I am simply dying because I'm not good enough yet, then practice will help. But if I am stuck because I have tried everything to solve a puzzle or find the one weakness for a boss, then practice isn't going to help. Odds are, I will never figure out the secret, but even if I could, it would take hours of frustration.

Though I just beat Headhunter now. The god damn handgun stuns him...the handgun. This boss is said to be invincible to all your weapons. Why does the weakest weapon in my arsenal actually have an effect? This was as retarded as Bubble Lead on Dr Wily in Megaman 2.

[Mega-Dan]

I had to use nintendo power to beat megaman 2 as a kid, I spent hours on that last level getting to the last guy, not knowing what weapon to use, dying starting over and dying again. Its not fun that way. If he took way less damage from different weapons or they somehow gave a clue he was weak against "bubbles" that would be fair.

[lordofduct]

What I am saying is that the game is not impossible. There is a way to beat it with out a guide... it will be much more difficult and drive you mad, but it IS beatable.

For instance... I never beat the game "Sub-Terrania" on the Sega Genesis. A month or 2 ago my girlfriends best friend came over with her boyfriend whom I was just meeting that night. He was kind of against the idea of hanging out with someone he didn't know until he saw my video game collection and spotted "Sub-Terrania". He freaked out and demanded we play.

For 3 weeks we played when ever we had the time... dieing repeatedly. We'd get to level 4 and die... do it over and over and finally beat level 4. We got to level 7 for once (the first of the water levels) and were just TOTALLY lost. Levels 1 thru 6 which I found all very difficult were played over and over and over so many times that they were just a walk in the park. One day I beat 7 and was amazed... from that day forth level 7 seemed so easy... what was it with that level that was so hard!? Because Level 8... OH MY FREAKING GOD! Now that was hard... I thought I'd never beat it...

anyways, what I am getting to is that I've beaten the game without any assistance from an FAQ. And if you've played and beaten "Sub-Terrania" you will know the difficulty I am referring too!

That reminds me... the greatest site I saw when it came to level 7. At the beginning of every level there is a mission report that tells you a basic idea of what enemies have to be killed and what items have to be picked up... sometimes they are hidden and they say "the last place it was seen was in this general area". Anyways Level 7 is the first water level and it fucks up the transmissions... it was really funny because a message appears.

Water Pres$$# ---- ErR0.-r
______Mes- - agE Fai10011010011---

Or along that lines and your left for the rest of the game in the biggest most difficult levels with the worse gravity and water pressure added in and NO mission report to know what the hell you might have to do (which is a LOT!). Beating this game is a freaking headache... but after beating it I was soooooooo proud of myself and Rene.

[Mega-Dan]

Yeah I hear what your saying about subterrania, but if you spend over four hours on one part, you tried, its not cheating if you really tried and couldnt do it. IF the game ceases to be fun, then its okay to cheat to get past that point. But just going through a game with a walkthrough on your lap is pointless, read a book or watch a movie.

[turkey]

My favourite game that I spent days and months to master was Kid Chameleon. I remember I'd play and pause the game and turn off the TV so I could come back the next day. My console was on for like 2 weeks trying to beat that game! I FINALLY got to the end guy and I was furious with how hard he was and my mother heard me yelling at the TV. She came into the room and said...
.

that was my mates fav game for a while, only after 2 weeks his megadrive went pop...... he got another one the next day the spoilt git but i dont think he ever played it again.

[Mozgus]

Yeah I hear what your saying about subterrania, but if you spend over four hours on one part, you tried, its not cheating if you really tried and couldnt do it. IF the game ceases to be fun, then its okay to cheat to get past that point. But just going through a game with a walkthrough on your lap is pointless, read a book or watch a movie.

Agreed. Some of us would rather NOT spend a dozen hours practicing a stage in a game. I don't play games when they aren't fun, and generally, "practicing" is never fun. It's work. And I should be paid for work.

Anyways Sub-Terrania is a bad example. That game is incredibly hard, but incredibly simple. It's entirely about 90% skill based difficulty. Sometimes there is a puzzle like bouncing that huge laser cannon's beams back around, but you realize you're supposed to do that after just a few seconds. At that point, the thinking ends, and the twitch reflexes are called back into play. Sub-Terrania requires practice to beat.

[lordofduct]

True, but what I am using as an example is in the later levels. The level is huge, your fuel runs out fast, and the fuel cells are limited... on top of that you have NO idea what you have to do and you have to play the level repeatedly to figure it out. Repeatedly means you have to get game overs and start over from level 1 over and over again.

The frustration is high... but the pay off is sweet. Showing that the game is NOT impossible. Just because right now you don't know what you have to do to complete a puzzle, doesn't mean you won't ever figure it out.

For instance... in the hospital in Silent Hill one there is a bottle you have to pick up in one random room and mix something in. Locating said bottle is annoying as hell as it doesn't stand out very well in the room it is in... surrounded by other bottles (which really bugged me... why not use any of the other bottles!? damn old games). Anyways, i spent days running around the hospital with NO idea of what the fuck I was supposed to do. I've attempted picking up bottles and failed because they were just for ambience and figured I had to locate something else, like a vile or sink or something. Nope... it was a bottle and had come across it after going into each room and just slowly walking about and hitting X over and over just hoping I'd pick something up.

Kinda dick... but walkthroughs aren't necessary.



Remember... My original intent of this was due to a post where someone said

On the other hand, I wonder how I ever beat any games as a kid, before the internet was around....

I'm saying that games aren't impossible with out them. What we did before the internet was trial and error and understanding that the game ISN'T impossible and we may have just missed something. Of course a Walkthrough is very nice when you've tried a thousand billion times (for instance with Silent Hill...) but hey... shit happens.

[Mozgus]

I'm saying that games aren't impossible with out them. What we did before the internet was trial and error and understanding that the game ISN'T impossible and we may have just missed something. Of course a Walkthrough is very nice when you've tried a thousand billion times (for instance with Silent Hill...) but hey... shit happens.

The best games don't require such frustration though. When I get stuck on something, and find out that the solution was something horribly retarded and irrelevant to the event, I usually consider it a flaw in the design.

[lordofduct]

I'm saying that games aren't impossible with out them. What we did before the internet was trial and error and understanding that the game ISN'T impossible and we may have just missed something. Of course a Walkthrough is very nice when you've tried a thousand billion times (for instance with Silent Hill...) but hey... shit happens.

The best games don't require such frustration though. When I get stuck on something, and find out that the solution was something horribly retarded and irrelevant to the event, I usually consider it a flaw in the design.

That is only opinion though... just as invariably I've been stating my own opinion the entire time. The only psuedo fact I've posted is the answer to the original statement of "what did we do before the internet"... we tried and we hunted and we got our hands on stuff in much more difficult manners.

But then it is also what kept the replay value up. Those old games would NOT be worth 50 or 60 bucks today not only because of graphical changes... but also because of gameplay changes. Sonic 2 can be beaten in less then an hour and with faqs can be mastered in a day. totally not worth the 55 dollar price tag at release.

Some of our favourite classics have these "flaws"... Mega Man comes to mind more then once!

Another is Ecco. A game so difficult in the puzzle aspect and meticulous in the survival aspect with very little to no explanation of how to play the game... I remember as a kid spending almost 30 minutes really frustrated on the first board of Ecco 1 wondering WHAT THE HELL to do! Did that make the game any worse!? No it got you ready for the entangled mesh of puzzles that are to come. And the game along with its 2 sequels are held as classic masterpieces in my mind.