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You're not wrong about Zelda and fighters vs beat 'em ups. So you'll be happy to know that they're two separate months I had planned for TR this year. March is Brutal Beat 'em Ups and June is Frickin' Fighters.

I'm not defending that Metroidvanias should be their own genre. But it is a thing, to the point that it's a genre listed on GoG and whatnot. It helps because it is a specific thing. If I'm in the mood for a platformer, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm in the mood for a whole gaining abilities and backtracking thing.

You have to appreciate though that sub genres are what give way to new genres. I think if a new sub genre becomes popular enough, it just becomes its own genre. Otherwise metal is just a sub sub genre of rock 'n roll. And run 'n guns are just a sub genre of platformers.

Raging Justice wrote:There's a LOT of platforming in Mega Man games so no I don't consider them run n guns. They don't require anywhere near the twitch based reflexes as a run n gun. You'll never see the screen filled with projectiles and explosions everywhere in a Mega Man game. That kind of intense action that run n guns have doesn't exist in Mega Man titles. Mega Man games are first and foremost about the platforming.

I'm kind of stickler about genres and it pisses people off sometimes so I have to try and remember to be respectful of differing opinions. In my mind though, genres are clearly defined. For example, I firmly believe that Zelda games are NOT rpgs and 2d fighters and beat 'em ups are SEPERATE genres, and I have pissed people off in the past with those view points. I don't care though, it's what I believe.

Metroidvania isn't a real genre either. They're just platformers with interconnected worlds that encourage exploring and back tracking. The vania part shouldn't even exist because Metroid did it first. They're not metroidvania games. They're just metroid clones.

People hate facts though. They just want to believe what they want to believe.

There's a ton of platforming in Contra, too. Genres aren't real. They're human classfiers, but like everything else, you'll always find blurred lines wherever the genres intersect.

Ziggy587 wrote:That said... What genre is Mega Man? Wikipedia lists it as platformer. But isn't it sorta a run 'n gun? But that doesn't seem right either.

Mega Man definitely guns, but he doesn't runs. He does more of a power walk, or a shuffle since you stop and go a lot (and that's what it looks like when you interrupt the running animation every tile or so). So maybe it's more of a Shuffle 'n Shoot?

Ziggy587 wrote:Rondo of Blood is a top-tier hack 'n slash platformer. And miles ahead of any other platformer on the TG16.

Interesting. I've never though of Rondo as a hack 'n slack. I can see that. Not my choice for that, but I see it. I'm not sure if I'd agree it's the best platformer on the system, but I'm hard pressed for good competition right now. I'd have to think on it some.

prfsnl_gmr wrote:Any other good modern action platformers for Castlevania fans?

What about retro platformers that are like Castlevania? Have you finished exploring that space, yet?

o.pwuaioc wrote:

Raging Justice wrote:People hate facts though. They just want to believe what they want to believe.

There's a ton of platforming in Contra, too. Genres aren't real. They're human classfiers, but like everything else, you'll always find blurred lines wherever the genres intersect.

Thank you for that point. I agree whole-heartedly. As a librarian, organization of info is kind of my thing, and in cataloging you do things like assign subjects. Well, it turns out books and articles and works are typically about more than one thing. But when you assign a call number to put something on the shelf you have to make a decision about what that thing is MORE about than any of the other things. And different catalogers will come to different conclusions. The reason this doesn't cause chaos is because it didn't matter so much before online library catalogs. And once online catalogs were a thing most mainstream materials become subject to what's called copy cataloging, where you just download a record someone else already cataloged. You give it a quick review to make sure it's not nonsense, and issue corrections back up the chain if there's something really out of place, but these days catalogers largely accept the subject decisions of whoever first submitted the record (barring something being just completely bonkers) because it matters more that those records are somewhat consistent between libraries than wringing hands over whether a book is slightly more about thermodynamics or statistical mechanics (when it's about the statistical mechanics of thermodynamics).

Genres are really an exercise in basic exclusive ontologies. But since no one person made or curated the genre ontology, it rather emerged from popular consensus, there is absolutely no hard and fast factual basis that makes one person's genre distinctions more based that someone else's. And thank goodness for that. Arguments about genre are often more about what aspect of a game is more important to the people arguing than some material truth of the universe.

But I'm also not a huge fan of the Metroidvania term as a broad genre, because it's actually fairly specific. There are a lot of platform adventure games that get lumped into it these days that really don't have anything in common with the Vania portion of that term and as such would more traditionally simply be called Adventure games otherwise. But of course, that's just MY personal opinion, man, and not God's Own Truth.

marurun wrote:

prfsnl_gmr wrote:Any other good modern action platformers for Castlevania fans?

What about retro platformers that are like Castlevania? Have you finished exploring that space, yet?

I’ve beaten Master of Darkness, which is a pretty OK Castlevania knock-off. I’ve also beaten all the Ninja Gaiden games, which are basically “fast Castlevania”. What else is out there?

Not that I don't enjoy this kind of topic (and that's not sarcasm) but hopefully this entire thread wont be about classifications and what have you.

marurun wrote:Interesting. I've never though of Rondo as a hack 'n slack. I can see that. Not my choice for that, but I see it. I'm not sure if I'd agree it's the best platformer on the system, but I'm hard pressed for good competition right now. I'd have to think on it some.

What (sub) genre do you assign to Castlevania? I mean, those that are not Metroidvania. Action platformer? I never put any real thought into it. I guess I would assign any platformer the hack 'n slash label if a weapon is your main attack. So I guess a sword would be the obvious thing to call hack 'n slash, but a chain whip is really identical gameplay. I mean, look at Symphony of the Night. Alucard uses mostly swords and not whips, but it still plays identical to a traditional Castlevania game.

And yeah, I'd love to hear your top X platformers for the TG16/PCE. It's still a relatively new system to me, and I'm sure I can explore the library some more.

prfsnl_gmr wrote:

marurun wrote:

prfsnl_gmr wrote:Any other good modern action platformers for Castlevania fans?

What about retro platformers that are like Castlevania? Have you finished exploring that space, yet?

I’ve beaten Master of Darkness, which is a pretty OK Castlevania knock-off. I’ve also beaten all the Ninja Gaiden games, which are basically “fast Castlevania”. What else is out there?

I like Master of Darkness, but I've never put the time into beating it. I gotta get around to it one of these days.

I always thought of Ninja Gaiden as Castlevania on crack. I've beaten the first one. This reminds me I still have to check out the second two.

What other retro games are like Castlevania?

marurun wrote:But I'm also not a huge fan of the Metroidvania term as a broad genre, because it's actually fairly specific. There are a lot of platform adventure games that get lumped into it these days that really don't have anything in common with the Vania portion of that term and as such would more traditionally simply be called Adventure games otherwise. But of course, that's just MY personal opinion, man, and not God's Own Truth.

I think what happened there is that a slew of Symphony of the Night style Castlevania games came out, so people started referring them as Metroidvania to more easily distinguish them from the traditional Castlevania games. And then in turn, any game that fit that bill was dubbed Metroidvania even if it didn't remotely resemble Castlevania. It might more to do with the evolution of language and less to do with classifications. Because you're right, calling some games MetroidVANIA seems stupid when you know where the "vania" came from. But at this point you'd have to argue that "Metroidvania" no longer means "a Castlevania game in the style of a Metroid game." To quote Wikipedia, a Metroidvania "is a sub-genre of action-adventure games and/or platformers focused on guided non-linearity and utility-gated exploration and progression." The name of the genre no longer requires ties to its namesake.

Ziggy587 wrote:What (sub) genre do you assign to Castlevania? I mean, those that are not Metroidvania. I never put any real thought into it. I guess I would assign any platformer the hack 'n slash label if a weapon is your main attack. So I guess a sword would be the obvious thing to call hack 'n slash, but a chain whip is really identical gameplay. I mean, look at Symphony of the Night. Alucard uses mostly swords and not whips, but it still plays identical to a traditional Castlevania game.

Alucard feels VERY different to me from the Belmonts. He's definitely faster and has better jump air control. But the biggest difference is that he has so many weapon styles that feel very different. Some he has to stop moving like a Belmont, but some he can keep moving. Also, there isn't as much wind-up. His attacks pretty much hit when you hit the button. With Belmont whipping hitting an object in the air can sometimes feel iffy with the sluggish jump and whip delay, but Alucard doesn't have that problem at all. I think SotN is an excellent and logical evolution, stylistically and in some ways even mechanically, from what came before, but it's also a very different beast in almost every way, IMO.

As for how I'd classify it? I mean, probably just straight up platformer is where I'd put it. The way I see hack and slash games the platforming is usually secondary, but in Castlevania what with the revolving platforms, the temporary blocks that fall, and the clock tower gears and pendulums, and the way crows and bats and flea men mess with jumps I feel like the platforming is just as central as the attacking. But that's just me.

Ziggy587 wrote:And yeah, I'd love to hear your top X platformers for the TG16/PCE. It's still a relatively new system to me, and I'm sure I can explore the library some more.

These are all worth a look at least. I've tried to put them loosely in order of how much you should consider playing them.

Chip games:
Jacki Chan's Action Kung Fu (really fantastic, fun game)
Legendary Axe and Legendary Axe II (completely unrelated in Japan: Makyou Densetsu and Ankoku Densetsu)
Bonk's Adventure and Bonk's Revenge are good B-tier platformers that feel pretty different in a number of ways. Bonk 3 is more Bonk's Revenge.
Ninja Spirit and Hero Tonma from Irem
Dai Makaimura (SGX - better than the Genesis version)
Dragon's Curse (improved version of Master System's Dragon's Trap)
New Adventure Island
Bloody Wolf (Run n Gun)
Liquid Kids, Parasol Stars (more puzzle platformer), Cadash (better than Genesis, IMO), Don Doko Don (puzzle platformer), and Jigoku Meguri (Bonze's Adventure) by Taito
City Hunter (there's a translation patch)
Tiger Road, Son Son II from Capcom (via NEC Ave)
Yokai Dochuki by Namco (might need translation support since it's a little adventure-y)
Keith Courage (imperfect, but not bad)
Kaizō Chōjin Shubibinman / Shockman (Not great, but worth a look. Sorta Mega Man-like)
J.J. & Jeff can be maddening, but worth a try

CD games:
Rondo of Blood
Valis 2-4 & The Fantasm Soldier
Exile
Exile: Wicked Phenomenon (use a patch to fix the broken challenge changed by Wrecking Designs)
Renny Blaster (Castlevania-like in some ways)
Fausette Amour (Castlevania-like in some ways)
Chiki Chiki Boys
Dynastic Hero (Wonder Boy in Monster World reskinned)
Iga Ninden Gaiō (well-animated Shinobi-like with more complex fighting, though it can get a bit repetitive)
Jim Power (Port from Euro PC, worth a look, amazing music)
Slime World (Port from Euro PC, worth a look)
Shadow of the Beast (Port from Euro PC, worth a look, amazing music)
Horror Story (not great, but worth a look)

In retrospect, yeah, the PC Engine did lose out on good platformers. There was so much focus on arcade ports that there wasn't as much original platformer output. It's disappointing. At least Telenet did their part.

Ziggy587 wrote:What other retro games are like Castlevania?

These two CD titles on PCE have some similarities to offer -
Renny Blaster (Castlevania-like in some ways)
Fausette Amour (Castlevania-like in some ways)

Sorry, it's been a minute since I was forum posting, so I'm not gonna do the fancy quoting.

Agree with prfsnl_gmr Infernax is very good modern take on Castlevania. I'd say it takes inspiration most from Castlevania II: Simon's Quest.

In my Castlevania run (chronological release order), I of course played Dracula X for the SNES. It is certainly a pale imitation of Rondo of Blood and the controls felt squishy and imprecise after the tightness of Rondo. That being said I didn't hate my time with it by any means, the graphics and music were very enjoyable and while it did get a bit hard towards the end due to the controls, I was able to finish it out.

I think next up is Castlevania: Legends, but need to finish up SotN first. I'll keep ya posted.

Oh and solid list from Maru as usual. I have an extensive TG collection and can agree with his post!

Thanks for making this thread. I've been following along. How does deciding on a game for the month work? I'm a bit time-poor these days, but really want to experience the camaraderie of playing through a game along with you guys. I really enjoyed Contra on the Nintendo DS a few years back. This Infernax game I've never heard of, but it sounds cool and after taking a quick glance at the trailer it looks great! Happy to play whatever, I feel overwhelmed by choice and never get around to picking and sticking to a game these days. Furthest I got in a game recently was playing through Pokemon Gold on my gameboy pocket during the recent Christmas break, I got up to the Elite 4 but haven't finished.

Last platformer I can remember playing for any serious length of time was probably Super Mario 3D Land. One that I've been thinking about recently is Croc 2. I remember wanting to like it when I was a kid, but as a game overall it blew pretty hard. It was just so clunky compared to games like Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Super Mario 64, Banjo Kazooie and other platformers around at the time. I think it would be interesting, but also potentially painful, to revisit. But I'll put it out there. Croc 2!

I’d like to offer some recommended listening to provide some historical context. Retronauts episode 582 is on the Pitfall! series and Pitfall! is essentially the Neolithic ancestor of platformers and exploration platformers. And Retronauts subscribers can listen to episode 586, the most recent episode, about Zelda II to get more context, including obligatory mention of just how pivotal Falcom was for the action RPG genre.

While Pitfall! is never cited by Japanese devs and barely has any presence in Japan, Pitfall II and H.E.R.O. were released in early 1984 and did have a presence in Japan. Pitfall II, I believe I’ve heard, has turned up in some Japanese developer interviews, meaning it was on the industry radar there. And then, in late 1984, Namco released Pac-Land, a game which is the true proto-platformer and the single most important influence for Super Mario Bros. The PC Engine/TG-16 version is pretty good and relatively accurate if anyone wants to experience the game that basically heralded a couple decades of Japanese platformer games.

Limewater wrote:

Raging Justice wrote:Metroidvania isn't a real genre either. They're just platformers with interconnected worlds that encourage exploring and back tracking. The vania part shouldn't even exist because Metroid did it first. They're not metroidvania games. They're just metroid clones.

People hate facts though. They just want to believe what they want to believe.

Metroid isn't even the first game to fit that description. Side-view platforming adventure games with interconnected worlds and backtracking existed for at least a couple of years before Metroid's release.

Maybe we should be calling all of them "Below the Root clones." I'm not even sure Below the Root is the first. It's just the earliest I've ever heard of. It's been on my "to play" list for over 20 years. Maybe I'll finally get around to it this year.

That's a great point. I feel like "metroidvania" as a genre or subgenre description is a very revisionist history sort of thing, but my god the term has caught on like wildfire these past few years and it feels like you're REQUIRED to say it now.

I think "metroidvania" started gaining usage with Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. I think all symphony added to that metroid formula is rpg elements so I don't understand why the term doesn't just refer to metroid style games with rpg elements. It's funny when you read about it in wikipedia. The article I recently read acknowledges that Metroid and maybe a few other games did this style of play first and yet still tries to somehow make it seem like Castlevania is a key part of this sub genre. I think one sentence said that Castlevania "defined" the genre and I just thought, "No. That was LITERALLY Metroid that did that". Hell, you could argue SUPER Metroid defined this subgenre, and this is coming from someone who LOVES Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Whatever. It's a losing battle because EVERYONE uses the term now and much like "Souls-like" it gets used to describe EVERYTHING these days. Now people are even combining the two, "It's a Souls-like Metroidvania!"

I've seen some people intentionally or unintentionally poke fun at the term. Like I think Super Daryl Deluxe was called an RPGvania.

As for "hack n slash", I've always heard this applied to certain types of rpgs and beat 'em ups that feature weapons. Golden Axe is the go to game people usually point to. Interestingly enough, we have Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown coming out this week and it does seem to feature what I would consider hack n slash, action in the vein of a character action title, but it's Prince of Persia so I imagine platforming will be a huge, if not core element of the gameplay.

To me, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania etc. are just action platformers. They are a bit more demanding when it comes to enemy combat than hop n bob, style platformers hence the "action" part., but they still don't come close to what I consider hack n slash games to be, which would be weapon based games more in the beat 'em up realm. I think games like this focus a lot on dealing with tricky platforming while enemies try and get in your way, like the classic enemy knocks you into a pit scenario, and also overcoming your character's rather limited movement while dealing with enemies that are faster than you, use projectiles, or just outnumber you. There's a lot of that in classic Ninja Gaiden and Castlevania. Okay, now I'm just rambling.

I won't harp on the genre thing too much more though. People are free to assign whatever descriptions they want to their games, but I do think having some general categories that everyone can agree on is important less we let game descriptions just descend into chaos.

It does drive me crazy when people call fighting games beat'em ups though

I believe I read something once about a UK gaming magazine calling both genres beat 'em ups and thus it caught on with a lot of people there.

prfsnl_gmr wrote:

marurun wrote:

prfsnl_gmr wrote:Any other good modern action platformers for Castlevania fans?

What about retro platformers that are like Castlevania? Have you finished exploring that space, yet?

I’ve beaten Master of Darkness, which is a pretty OK Castlevania knock-off. I’ve also beaten all the Ninja Gaiden games, which are basically “fast Castlevania”. What else is out there?

I'd recommend, assuming you haven't played them already

Smelter - With the DLC, they introduced a mode that removes the Actraiser style RTS elements and just turns it into a Mega Man X clone. It's very good and the DLC is on the Switch cartridge build (Europe only release). The cartridge version does crash sometimes though

Grim/Gal Guardians: Demon Purge from the great folks over at IntiCreates. Very Castlevania-ish

The Messenger - Ninja Gaiden evolved. it's even been acknowledged by the original Ninja Gaiden developers and composer

Vengeful Guardian: Moonrider - Kind of like Shinobi meets Mega Man X

Actraiser Rennaisance - The side scrolling levels are pretty challenging. I never played the original Actraiser so I don't know how they compare to it

Cannon Dancer Osman - Basically Strider

Cyber Shadow - I gave this game a lot of hate in another thread, but it is an effective Ninja Gaiden clone. Some of the level design and enemies feel really cheap though, and it doesn't do anything to stand out like The Messenger or Vengeful Guardian. It's from the folks who made Shovel Knight

Elderand - I've heard this is a decent old school, Castlevania clone

Slain: Back From Hell - Game kind of pissed me off, but a lot of people love it. It's very metal and very hard. The devs also made Valfaris, which I think was a cross between Mega Man and Contra

Flynn: Son of Crimson - Fun, side scrolling platformer with a fairly decent combat system but never really goes full beat 'em up. It's a platformer first and foremost, but does have some fun combat arenas

Gravity Circuit - I played one level. It's got great reviews. Felt like Mega Man with a bit of bionic commando

Steel Assault - Wow. I played one level and the graphics kind of blew me away. Feel like an action platform game right out of an old school arcade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH9y1L7N0pM

Panzer Paladin - The trailer probably describes better than I could. I haven't played it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYofygShVGw

The Wonder Boy remakes, including Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom - Monster Boy could be called a metroidvania, but there's a lot of linear areas where you have to overcome a lot of tricky platforming and deal with enemies before you get to back track. It's a very controlled experience that has much more linear progression than a lot of metroidvanias. You'll go through a tricky area, fight a boss, then maybe get an ability that lets you optionally go back to a previous area and pick up a health upgrade or something, than it's back to the next linear area and boss fight before you get your next ability.

Demons of Asteborg - Has a little metroidvania, but is mostly an action platformer. You can even play this on the Sega Genesis or get the rom for an emulator. It's on Switch too I think

Bat Boy - Has some postive buzz, Mega Man clone I believe

Super Zangyura - Brutal game, has some puzzle solving. It's a weird game, check out the trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swT0Ej3Tw74

Ninja Cop - I think every GBA owner knows about this one

Shinrei Jusatsushi Tarōmaru - Awesome ninja action game, good luck getting a physical copy though, much like the game right above it