Education

[saturnfan]

And it's been shown elsewhere that applying more money to the education system tends to get better results.

How so? The US has the highest per pupil spending of any country, and has been increasing educational spending well beyond inflationary rates for decades, yet we have some of the lowest proficiency rates among industrialized nations.

We have some type of systemic problem in the educational system that is not being addressed. It could be anything.

Believe me, as someone who is planing to enroll in a PhD program, I certainly value education, yet I am not entirely convinced that throwing more money at the problem is going to make it go away. If money is the issue, maybe it needs to spent in different ways, like better training for potential teachers or something like that.

[Flake]

It might be a straw man argument but how much of that 'beyond inflation rates' increase in spending is going to build football fields, baseball stadiums, and fund raises for administrators? I've been out of high school for nearly 10 years but I remember my school being decrepit and the teachers being burnt out husks.

We had a REALLY nice football field, though. Too bad we never won any games.

[Limewater]

and fund raises for administrators?

I can't speak for high schools, but at the college level the ratio of administrative to teaching staff has gotten ridiculous.

http://www.allgov.com/Controversies/Vie ... ers_100910

[saturnfan]

It's better to have a well educated populace.

My only problem with having so many people in college is that degrees are less meaningful as requirements seem to have become less stringent. As someone that teaches at the college level, it's surprising to me to see each year how many students can barely write and to see how strongly they will argue for a grade that they don't deserve.

This is a great point. A few times during my undergrad years, I would write a paper that I wasn't too impressed with and I knew I could have done a better job. So naturally I would expect a B on it. However, every time it came back as an A.

And it made me think that the other people in class must have been turning in some pretty terrible papers. I feel like I didn't have to write a good paper, it just has to be better than everyone else, who apparently couldn't read or write.

[dsheinem]

Glad you picked up on our discussion last night Mr. P. This is something I am intensely passionate about.

That said, I am too busy grading papers right now to chime in with a proper response Perhaps tomorrow I will...

Essentially I am upset at the massive and increasing devaluation of education by taxpayers, politicians, and students alike. I am also furious about the extension of what I see as the No Child Left Behind/teach to the test/outcomes based education into higher education...it has been horrible for HS, and would be even worse for colleges.

More later!

[Markell1991]

Believe me, as someone who is planing to enroll in a PhD program, I certainly value education, yet I am not entirely convinced that throwing more money at the problem is going to make it go away. If money is the issue, maybe it needs to spent in different ways, like better training for potential teachers or something like that.

Exactly! My school (I live in the UK) was a independent grammar school, but two years ago was 'bought' by a company that take under-performing schools and turn them round (not that ours was). They seem to think, as did the government, that throwing money into the education system, particularly in computers and technology, will help. It won't. The way to improve any education system is by:
1) Making sure the kids have the right attitude, that they want to learn and be there, and
2) Providing teachers that both care for their pupils, and also can teach.
Saturnfan, you are so right.

[Ack]

That is in part a cultural problem - we have hammered it into kids that they cannot fail and that they are special snow flakes. Teachers at lower levels have no advocacy from their schools if they fail the little fuckers - who can honestly be surprised when they get to college and continue to pull that shit?

In Alabama, things are a little different. Poor teachers are protected by an extremely powerful teacher's union known as the Alabama Education Association, an organization that is in some areas mandatory for school employees to join. Any attempt in the last three decades to overhaul Alabama's education system or how it is funded has been killed by these guys, despite that we've been in the grip of proration for years. Firing a poor teacher is nearly impossible in this state,such as the case of one woman convicted of pedophilia who continued to be paid for three years while she was in prison because that school system simply couldn't get rid of her.

Part of the issue is that the AEA is used as a funding juggernaut for one of the two major political parties. The dues that educators (and in some cases school janitors, lunch ladies, bus drivers, and administration staff) regularly pay are then funneled into reelection campaigns or ad campaigns through our draconian PAC system to bolster or thwart candidates. The reason we have Governor Robert Bentley instead of the original gubernatorial Republican frontrunner Bradley Byrne? Byrne openly criticized the AEA's practices, so they spent tens of thousands of dollars to blast him with negative ads that were completely unrelated to education. And because this money was filtered through a handful of PACs, the AEA didn't have to say they were paying for it. It only came to light on expense reports released several months after Byrne lost the primary.

Look, I was lucky where I went to school. Auburn pays a lot of money to make sure its public school system is better than the majority of the state, and the high school I attended is proof of that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auburn_Hig ... Alabama%29. But the population here is also very dedicated to education, especially considering the university. There's a joke that AHS students get a seat saved for them at AU, but it's largely true due to the quality of the school.

Alabama has other issues though. We've become so heavily focused on having a college degree, so many people in recent decades have been shooting for them, but it's killed our trade schools. The state is currently in the middle of a big push to get more high school graduates into trade schools to learn working skills because our craftsmen population is much older, and large portions will be retiring soon. Money is a big issue though: a lot of folks think a college degree is worth more, but there are some places that will pay large salaries if you know how to weld properly.

Meanwhile in other places education isn't well funded, and kids don't want to stay in school, so in some of the more rural counties here we have graduation rates as low as 50%. And then there are some of our inner city schools....I don't suggest anyone go to one of those.

[ZeroAX]

How so? The US has the highest per pupil spending of any country

Source please

[Michi]

That is in part a cultural problem - we have hammered it into kids that they cannot fail and that they are special snow flakes. Teachers at lower levels have no advocacy from their schools if they fail the little fuckers - who can honestly be surprised when they get to college and continue to pull that shit?

Sad to say that even competent teachers have no say whether or not they fail anymore. I was a teacher aid in high school for one period (I copied papers for a whole wing full of teachers and ran errands), and was pretty much told that the teachers were encouraged not to fail pupils, much to the teachers frustration. In my high school I remember quite a few confident little pricks who had not qualms about failing a class. And why were they so confident? Because those who were failed were put into special classes, specifically designed so that they couldn't fail, even if they slept through the whole freakin' class. As someone who actually did their work (and did it well, thank you very much) this kind of crap pissed me off to no end.

At least when I moved on to college they didn't pull that crap. If you flunked, you flunked. Though luck. Now take the class over and here's a list of tutors who can help you.

[J T]

In Alabama, things are a little different. Poor teachers are protected by an extremely powerful teacher's union known as the Alabama Education Association, an organization that is in some areas mandatory for school employees to join. Any attempt in the last three decades to overhaul Alabama's education system or how it is funded has been killed by these guys, despite that we've been in the grip of proration for years. Firing a poor teacher is nearly impossible in this state,such as the case of one woman convicted of pedophilia who continued to be paid for three years while she was in prison because that school system simply couldn't get rid of her.

There are some really screwy things in the basic infrastructure for teachers. My wife works as a school psychologist in a middle school in Shoreline, WA. Every year there is a decision made about which teachers and staff can continue on in the next year given the shrinking budget. This decision has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of the educator though. It is entirely based on seniority. My wife has only worked in this school district for a couple of years, so she is always on the bottom rung at the end of every year. My wife has a masters degree and a PhD along with multiple special certifications and specialized trainingswithin her field. She is way overqualified for her job. She consistently gets amazing evaluations. In her evaluation last year, the vice principle that evaluated her said that in his 30 years in working for the district as in various capacities (vice principal, principal, superintendent) that he has never worked with a better school psych. Nevertheless, she is constantly on the chopping block while people that everyone knows do a terrible job have nothing to worry about because they have simply worked there for more years. Everything is based on seniority. Even worse, when it has come down to just her and a few people with the same years experience, they STILL don't decide who stays based on their performance. When it comes down to that they make the decision by a fucking lottery! My wife only has her job still because of winning a goddamn lottery, regardless of her skill and academic pedigree.

This sort of things is so patently absurd that I really have no idea why it contiues to be this way, but it does.