Development costs for a typical fighter?

[isiolia]

I'd say yes. They aren't inherently cheaper than 2d graphics (in fact, in terms of programs used it's quite the opposite), but it's far more time consuming to animate a 2d sprite than a 3d model. In terms of man hours and wages, it'd be much cheaper to use 3D.

I think it's that things can be more modular with 3D. The model could be updated without redoing animations, or vice versa. Easily demonstrated with full alternate costumes in recent Capcom fighters, versus palette swaps in 2D. Obviously, it works both ways too.

A 3D character can be rendered at higher res on a more capable system. Might make putting the game on various platforms simpler - or at least updating them to take advantage of higher resolution graphics/etc.
I don't think we'll ever see something like the less-than-graceful aging of the old Morrigan sprite with 3D characters.

To me, the move to 3D is about long-term cost/benefits.

[pakopako]

To me, the move to 3D is about long-term cost/benefits.

While I am not arguing that, 2D games still have that "hand-polished" feel (because of all the effort it takes to animate fluidly). They appeal to a smaller and smaller sector of gamers, but that sector may also be more patient if your production hits a standstill.

Or you could work cell-shading into your fighter to combine the two fields. (Especially worthwhile considering there is no cel-shaded head-to-head fighter that I can think of at the moment.)

[CFFJR]

Whoa, I didn't realize this thread had been revived.

Interesting discussion now though.

Since Pako Pako mentioned it, I'm pretty sure a couple of the Dragonball Z fighters either this or last gen (maybe both) were cell shaded. That's all that comes to mind.

[CD AGES]

Or you could work cell-shading into your fighter to combine the two fields. (Especially worthwhile considering there is no cel-shaded head-to-head fighter that I can think of at the moment.)

Are you serious!?

[neilencio]

Or you could work cell-shading into your fighter to combine the two fields. (Especially worthwhile considering there is no cel-shaded head-to-head fighter that I can think of at the moment.)

There are a lot of them, actually. Especially on the PS2. Most of them based on Anime franchises (OTOH, Super Dragonball Z was one. The original Street Fighter guys had a hand it in, so it was a pretty good fighting game and a terrible Dragonball Z game at the same time.)

[pakopako]

I thought those were full-on 3D? I remember Bandai put forth some sprite-based DBZ games on the PSX, but after Tobal showed that 3D Toriyama looked decent enough, they went ahead with 3D polygon models.

Thanks for putting me on the right track -- Dragon Ball: Raging Blast is very much head-to-head and cel-shaded. (Though its sequel... is that still cel-shaded?) Still though... most of these titles are based of an anime license. Imagine if the designs of Killer7 made it in?

[alienjesus]

I thought those were full-on 3D? I remember Bandai put forth some sprite-based DBZ games on the PSX, but after Tobal showed that 3D Toriyama looked decent enough, they went ahead with 3D polygon models.

Thanks for putting me on the right track -- Dragon Ball: Raging Blast is very much head-to-head and cel-shaded. (Though its sequel... is that still cel-shaded?) Still though... most of these titles are based of an anime license. Imagine if the designs of Killer7 made it in?

For the record, they are full on 3D. They're also cel-shaded. Cel shading is a graphic effect that adds black borders and cartoon-like shading/highlighting to the 3D objects. I wouldn't really describe any 2D graphics as cel-shaded. They're just bordered then.

[isiolia]

For the record, they are full on 3D. They're also cel-shaded. Cel shading is a graphic effect that adds black borders and cartoon-like shading/highlighting to the 3D objects. I wouldn't really describe any 2D graphics as cel-shaded. They're just bordered then.

Aye, cell-shading is really just a way to emulate certain styles of 2D animation with 3D.

That said, it is really only a particular style for 2D animation as well, I'd say. Something like Guilty Gear or Blazblue, with a definite anime style, is what they'd be emulating. Even something like Street Fighter II has less of the hard-edged shadows n' all that'd be typical of that, so the standard shaders for SFIV, or games like Battle Fantasia, aren't necessarily that far removed.

[pakopako]

For the record, they are full on 3D. They're also cel-shaded. Cel shading is a graphic effect that adds black borders and cartoon-like shading/highlighting to the 3D objects. I wouldn't really describe any 2D graphics as cel-shaded. They're just bordered then.

Aye, cell-shading is really just a way to emulate certain styles of 2D animation with 3D.

That said, it is really only a particular style for 2D animation as well, I'd say. Something like Guilty Gear or Blazblue, with a definite anime style, is what they'd be emulating. Even something like Street Fighter II has less of the hard-edged shadows n' all that'd be typical of that, so the standard shaders for SFIV, or games like Battle Fantasia, aren't necessarily that far removed.

But how would you be able to say the difference was between a model that's fully texture-mapped and shaded and one that was cel-shaded?

Specifically when I was Googling cel-shaded games last night, I came upon forums who argued over the quality of images from DBZ:RB1 and images from DBZ:RB2.

My experience with cel-shaded games is likely outdated by now (JSRF, Afro Samurai, Robotech, Futurama, NMH, Okami..) so I originally thought cel-shading was used to make 3D objects look flat. So when I see something like Prince of Persia (2008) being mentioned and seeing this, I'm not sure what cel-shading is any more.

[alienjesus]

It looks like Prince of Persia is being described as Cel shaded because it has the black border. However, it doesn't have the simplified blocks of shading and lighting that are the true indicators of the style, and what give it that 'flat' look, so I would say that no, it's not really cel-shaded.

The dragonball Z games on the other hand, do seem to be.