go to the PCEngineFX forums and just type in Sapphire in the search. It should come up quickly.
Someone had a large amounts of the care4data copies and I ended up with a small stack. I don't know what I'm doing with them yet. I wouldn't feel right selling them. Maybe if I'm back in Japan, I'll include them in a set with someone plus an Arcade Card.
PC Engine Sapphire
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
Sales thread. Make offers! PC Engine and Famicom: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17892&p=197217#p197217.
My PC Engine/Turbografx-16 Guide: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39471&p=654857#p654857
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
Here's an interesting story about it:
Sapphire: Second Run Copies or Not?
NOTE (Thursday, February 02, 2006 2:20am USA Central Time): This article could be considered dated because of more information released after this was written. It's still unknown where these second printed copies came from, so this still makes an interesting read, even if we ever do get a definite answer.
Last late June 2005, there was a big shock within in the PC Engine community. An Ebay user from Germany using the Ebay name "asian dvd classics", was selling copies of Sapphire for only $60 new. Every PC Engine fan out there knows that Sapphire can easily go for $400 and go for more than that easily, especially if brand new. His reason for selling them so cheap was because he claimed to have bought a big pack of them from Japan that he tells were "second run" copies that Hudson made. The story he told about this goes as follows and can be read on his site, which was the same page he used for his Ebay auctions:
"Sapphire is a legendary 2D shoot’em up released for the PC Engine Arcade Card addon towards the end of the PC Engine’s lifespan. The game pushes the PCE’s hardware to it’s absolute limits. The orchestral score is fantastic and the graphics gorgeous - even outperforming many of the later on released 32-bit shoot’em ups.
While not this hard to find (if looking in the right places), Sapphire has always been extremely expensive. Released at a normal price tag in the early 90s, the game has always been in the US$ 500 price range nevertheless. Around 1999 or 2000 some shops in Tokyo started to offer “alternative” prints of the game - unfortunately not telling (or knowing) what they are selling. Even today you’ll run a 50% chance of buying one of the “alternative” prints when shopping in Tokyo after this game.
The origins of this “alternative” version of the game are unclear. Some shops in Tokyo claim Hudson issued a 2nd print later on to keep prices down, but the print run didn't hit the stores in the regular way. When Hudson cleared all their warehouses years later the games hit the stores (similar to the Circus Lido situation with Amazon). This isn't confirmed though.
A copy of this version was once forwarded to Hudson Japan and Hudson was not able to confirm that there was anything wrong with it, although it's doubtable that they invested much time to do an archive check on their 1st release. Given the overall quality and perfection, it seems obvious that is was produced "in house" (or at least it was produced in Japan by people who had access to the original materials). Without owning the first run of the game and the possibility to do a side-by-side comparison, it’s hard to tell a difference.
"I bought some copies of this one in Tokyo quite some time ago, not knowing of any “alternative” version and therefore paying a lot of money for those (nowhere near US$500, but still a lot more than what I ask now). From my judgement, I’d say that every 2nd copy of this game sold on Ebay or other internet platforms refers to this version of the game - of course without telling and asking hell of a price. While it might be debatable if it’s ok to sell this game or not, I think it’s ok if people know what they are buying."
Before I talk any further, I'd like to mention I got this link from a thread at the PC Engine FX Forums in which the seller himself posted as the user name "Fudoh", so I'll refer to this guy as "Fudoh" from now on. Now from reading his story about these "alternate versions", believers and skeptics are formed immediately, but this didn't stop anyone from both groups to buy a copy, because it's remarkable enough as it is and the owners usually say how excellent it is. There are very good reasons to believe whether it's an actual second run copy or not, and I myself, am a believer.
The following are reasons why these second run copies of Sapphire could easily be bootlegs:
1. ) It's an easy way to get money and even attention from us PCE fans.
2. ) The alternate copies of Sapphire aren't as exact as the originals. If you read this article from VideoGameImports.com (a nice European site for purchasing obscured and rare Japanese video games), they mention the differences between the second run copies and the original. One detail they didn't mention was mentioned on a PC Engine FX Forums thread in which the user "pixeljunkie" mentions that the inner ring has the company name pressed on them, "CARE4DATA". The user "Michael Helgeson" on that same thread later on posts great information on the company.
3. ) Maybe Fudoh wasn't the bootlegger of these and managed to get a lot of bootlegs from someone for free or cheap and decided to sell them with a fake story to get some easy free money.
4. ) Perhaps Fudoh is a big and kind PCE fan and wanted to let the people who haven't played Sapphire buy it for a more affordable price and have an original-like version, even if it would more than likely costs him tons of money and time. Aww, that would be so cute if this was really the truth!
5. ) Fudoh's eBay name is "asian dvd classics", which doesn't exactly sound like a eBay friendly name.
The following are my reasons why I believe these could be second run copies instead of bootlegs:
1. ) I haven't bought one myself, but from the pictures I have viewed from his auctions and site, it looks exactly like the original game from pictures I have seen. From people who do own this version say it's quite impressive and had way too much effort put into it for it to be a bootleg. According to VideoGameImports.Com (a European site for purchasing obscured and rare Japanese video games), they give the slight reasons as to how it's differs from the original copies, and it's not by much really.
2. ) If it was a bootleg, why would the bootlegger put so much time into making the bootlegs and only selling them for $60 instead of the high price it usually goes for? The bootlegger isn't even making half the price for what Sapphire usually goes for so he's clearly not making any money from it, especially for the time and costs of producing the bootlegs.
3. ) Why would the bootlegger even bother to make up such a story about Hudson making alternate copies?
4. ) In a PC Engine FX Forums thread, Michael Helgeson makes some very strong points as to why it could be second run, and I'll sum them up:
A. ) If Hudson did decide to make a second run off Sapphire around 1999, Hudson may or may not have had the pressing equipment still in operation, so they could have chose any pressing factory in the world, which would be CARE4DATA in this case. A lot of these pressing factories with the older equipment were still in full swing by the year 2001, so Hudson had a pretty good chance at finding one back around 1999.
B. ) This same situation was very common in the Laser Disc industry because a lot of pressing plants in the USA didn't still have the older equipment to produce second runs for laser discs (especially since USA never really cared for Laser Discs), so laser discs such "Aliens Special Edition" and "Evil Dead" were pressed in other countries like Japan and the UK, because they still had factories to press laser discs. This was by no means considered a bootleg and this same case could quite easily go for the second run copies of Sapphire.
C. ) Print differences between the original and second run copies are common, like in the laser disc industry as Michael mentions.
D. ) Pressing factories typically won't do any order less than 1,000 copies. So if Fudoh was the bootlegger, he would have a lot more of these second run copies for sale, but he doesn't. In this PCE FX forums thread, the user "zborgerd" posts "Apparently, he purchased an A4 sized box full of them, from Japan, in 2001. What's interesting is that it apparently had a Hudson label on the box.". Right after his post, the user "akamichi" posts that "A4" size is fairly large and probably contains 20 copies or so. If this is true, then we would have to see around 980 more copies of these second run copies available for Fudoh to be a real bootlegger. Also the fact that how the box has a "Hudson" label on it could be a somewhat useful fact for the believer's side.
E. ) A second print run would make up for the people who didn't have copies of Sapphire so they wouldn't have to pay the expensive prices.
F. ) Hudson knowing that people could pay up to $500 for this game could give them pride for knowing that people would pay so much for one of their games, so a second run could have been done by Hudson to try making the value of the first run go down for their beloved gamers.
G. ) Widely admitting that there were second run copies of Sapphire would be out of character for Hudson and they just couldn't slap a "BEST OF SERIES" label on them like they did for the Playstation because they never did it before and it's a little too late.
H. ) Sapphire was one of the most hyped up shooters for the PCE, so making a second run was logical; it was kind of like saying goodbye to the console that made them rich and famous, since the two, poor brothers that started Hudson were claimed to be very nice people.
5. ) If this was a bootlegger, a pressing factory that still presses PCE CDs could have a good chance of knowing what Sapphire is and might not want to have anything to do with a bootleg of such a rare and expensive game due to copyright issues. Even if they didn't, they might figure out something is fishy when making copies of Sapphire because of the copyrights listed on the game's packaging.
6. ) In regards to fact number four for the bootleg list, if that was the case, that bootlegger would have lost tons of money and his precious time; I don't know many people that would like to use a crap load of money just for some fans of a classic and obscured console. At the very best he would have sold CD-R backups of the game or help people download an ISO for the game.
The only way to understand if these are second run copies or bootlegs is to have Hudson officially answer that, along with maybe CARE4DATE giving any information about whomever wanted copies of Sapphire pressed. Until then I will stay a believer of these second run copies. Also whether Fudoh's story is true or not, it's radical to have original-like copies of Sapphire for MUCH cheaper and it made a great story and debate as well!
Special thanks goes to Michael Helgeson for offering terrific information on the PC Engine FX Forums along with everyone else who posted with their thoughts.
Sapphire: Second Run Copies or Not?
NOTE (Thursday, February 02, 2006 2:20am USA Central Time): This article could be considered dated because of more information released after this was written. It's still unknown where these second printed copies came from, so this still makes an interesting read, even if we ever do get a definite answer.
Last late June 2005, there was a big shock within in the PC Engine community. An Ebay user from Germany using the Ebay name "asian dvd classics", was selling copies of Sapphire for only $60 new. Every PC Engine fan out there knows that Sapphire can easily go for $400 and go for more than that easily, especially if brand new. His reason for selling them so cheap was because he claimed to have bought a big pack of them from Japan that he tells were "second run" copies that Hudson made. The story he told about this goes as follows and can be read on his site, which was the same page he used for his Ebay auctions:
"Sapphire is a legendary 2D shoot’em up released for the PC Engine Arcade Card addon towards the end of the PC Engine’s lifespan. The game pushes the PCE’s hardware to it’s absolute limits. The orchestral score is fantastic and the graphics gorgeous - even outperforming many of the later on released 32-bit shoot’em ups.
While not this hard to find (if looking in the right places), Sapphire has always been extremely expensive. Released at a normal price tag in the early 90s, the game has always been in the US$ 500 price range nevertheless. Around 1999 or 2000 some shops in Tokyo started to offer “alternative” prints of the game - unfortunately not telling (or knowing) what they are selling. Even today you’ll run a 50% chance of buying one of the “alternative” prints when shopping in Tokyo after this game.
The origins of this “alternative” version of the game are unclear. Some shops in Tokyo claim Hudson issued a 2nd print later on to keep prices down, but the print run didn't hit the stores in the regular way. When Hudson cleared all their warehouses years later the games hit the stores (similar to the Circus Lido situation with Amazon). This isn't confirmed though.
A copy of this version was once forwarded to Hudson Japan and Hudson was not able to confirm that there was anything wrong with it, although it's doubtable that they invested much time to do an archive check on their 1st release. Given the overall quality and perfection, it seems obvious that is was produced "in house" (or at least it was produced in Japan by people who had access to the original materials). Without owning the first run of the game and the possibility to do a side-by-side comparison, it’s hard to tell a difference.
"I bought some copies of this one in Tokyo quite some time ago, not knowing of any “alternative” version and therefore paying a lot of money for those (nowhere near US$500, but still a lot more than what I ask now). From my judgement, I’d say that every 2nd copy of this game sold on Ebay or other internet platforms refers to this version of the game - of course without telling and asking hell of a price. While it might be debatable if it’s ok to sell this game or not, I think it’s ok if people know what they are buying."
Before I talk any further, I'd like to mention I got this link from a thread at the PC Engine FX Forums in which the seller himself posted as the user name "Fudoh", so I'll refer to this guy as "Fudoh" from now on. Now from reading his story about these "alternate versions", believers and skeptics are formed immediately, but this didn't stop anyone from both groups to buy a copy, because it's remarkable enough as it is and the owners usually say how excellent it is. There are very good reasons to believe whether it's an actual second run copy or not, and I myself, am a believer.
The following are reasons why these second run copies of Sapphire could easily be bootlegs:
1. ) It's an easy way to get money and even attention from us PCE fans.
2. ) The alternate copies of Sapphire aren't as exact as the originals. If you read this article from VideoGameImports.com (a nice European site for purchasing obscured and rare Japanese video games), they mention the differences between the second run copies and the original. One detail they didn't mention was mentioned on a PC Engine FX Forums thread in which the user "pixeljunkie" mentions that the inner ring has the company name pressed on them, "CARE4DATA". The user "Michael Helgeson" on that same thread later on posts great information on the company.
3. ) Maybe Fudoh wasn't the bootlegger of these and managed to get a lot of bootlegs from someone for free or cheap and decided to sell them with a fake story to get some easy free money.
4. ) Perhaps Fudoh is a big and kind PCE fan and wanted to let the people who haven't played Sapphire buy it for a more affordable price and have an original-like version, even if it would more than likely costs him tons of money and time. Aww, that would be so cute if this was really the truth!
5. ) Fudoh's eBay name is "asian dvd classics", which doesn't exactly sound like a eBay friendly name.
The following are my reasons why I believe these could be second run copies instead of bootlegs:
1. ) I haven't bought one myself, but from the pictures I have viewed from his auctions and site, it looks exactly like the original game from pictures I have seen. From people who do own this version say it's quite impressive and had way too much effort put into it for it to be a bootleg. According to VideoGameImports.Com (a European site for purchasing obscured and rare Japanese video games), they give the slight reasons as to how it's differs from the original copies, and it's not by much really.
2. ) If it was a bootleg, why would the bootlegger put so much time into making the bootlegs and only selling them for $60 instead of the high price it usually goes for? The bootlegger isn't even making half the price for what Sapphire usually goes for so he's clearly not making any money from it, especially for the time and costs of producing the bootlegs.
3. ) Why would the bootlegger even bother to make up such a story about Hudson making alternate copies?
4. ) In a PC Engine FX Forums thread, Michael Helgeson makes some very strong points as to why it could be second run, and I'll sum them up:
A. ) If Hudson did decide to make a second run off Sapphire around 1999, Hudson may or may not have had the pressing equipment still in operation, so they could have chose any pressing factory in the world, which would be CARE4DATA in this case. A lot of these pressing factories with the older equipment were still in full swing by the year 2001, so Hudson had a pretty good chance at finding one back around 1999.
B. ) This same situation was very common in the Laser Disc industry because a lot of pressing plants in the USA didn't still have the older equipment to produce second runs for laser discs (especially since USA never really cared for Laser Discs), so laser discs such "Aliens Special Edition" and "Evil Dead" were pressed in other countries like Japan and the UK, because they still had factories to press laser discs. This was by no means considered a bootleg and this same case could quite easily go for the second run copies of Sapphire.
C. ) Print differences between the original and second run copies are common, like in the laser disc industry as Michael mentions.
D. ) Pressing factories typically won't do any order less than 1,000 copies. So if Fudoh was the bootlegger, he would have a lot more of these second run copies for sale, but he doesn't. In this PCE FX forums thread, the user "zborgerd" posts "Apparently, he purchased an A4 sized box full of them, from Japan, in 2001. What's interesting is that it apparently had a Hudson label on the box.". Right after his post, the user "akamichi" posts that "A4" size is fairly large and probably contains 20 copies or so. If this is true, then we would have to see around 980 more copies of these second run copies available for Fudoh to be a real bootlegger. Also the fact that how the box has a "Hudson" label on it could be a somewhat useful fact for the believer's side.
E. ) A second print run would make up for the people who didn't have copies of Sapphire so they wouldn't have to pay the expensive prices.
F. ) Hudson knowing that people could pay up to $500 for this game could give them pride for knowing that people would pay so much for one of their games, so a second run could have been done by Hudson to try making the value of the first run go down for their beloved gamers.
G. ) Widely admitting that there were second run copies of Sapphire would be out of character for Hudson and they just couldn't slap a "BEST OF SERIES" label on them like they did for the Playstation because they never did it before and it's a little too late.
H. ) Sapphire was one of the most hyped up shooters for the PCE, so making a second run was logical; it was kind of like saying goodbye to the console that made them rich and famous, since the two, poor brothers that started Hudson were claimed to be very nice people.
5. ) If this was a bootlegger, a pressing factory that still presses PCE CDs could have a good chance of knowing what Sapphire is and might not want to have anything to do with a bootleg of such a rare and expensive game due to copyright issues. Even if they didn't, they might figure out something is fishy when making copies of Sapphire because of the copyrights listed on the game's packaging.
6. ) In regards to fact number four for the bootleg list, if that was the case, that bootlegger would have lost tons of money and his precious time; I don't know many people that would like to use a crap load of money just for some fans of a classic and obscured console. At the very best he would have sold CD-R backups of the game or help people download an ISO for the game.
The only way to understand if these are second run copies or bootlegs is to have Hudson officially answer that, along with maybe CARE4DATE giving any information about whomever wanted copies of Sapphire pressed. Until then I will stay a believer of these second run copies. Also whether Fudoh's story is true or not, it's radical to have original-like copies of Sapphire for MUCH cheaper and it made a great story and debate as well!
Special thanks goes to Michael Helgeson for offering terrific information on the PC Engine FX Forums along with everyone else who posted with their thoughts.
Sales thread. Make offers! PC Engine and Famicom: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17892&p=197217#p197217.
My PC Engine/Turbografx-16 Guide: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39471&p=654857#p654857
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
Breetai wrote:go to the PCEngineFX forums and just type in Sapphire in the search. It should come up quickly.
Looked around and found nothing. Link?
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
dsheinem wrote:We also want to know how cheap you'll be selling these
That's what I was gonna say too. My only way of playing this on the PCE is my burned copy of the game. I wouldn't mind owning one of those discs. I'd pay $10 for one. If you wouldn't feel comfortable with that, even if it's just to cover shipping expenses and gas money for you to drive to the post office to mail one to me, I could send you something for one.
That reminds me, I'll be going to Japan next month, and I will keep an eye out for the PSP version that comes bundled with the Galaxy Fraulein Yuna games. I already have those for the PCE, but I wouldn't mind getting the PSP bundle.
-
mobiusclimber
- 128-bit
- Posts: 743
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:30 pm
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
I owned one of these CARE4DATE pressings awhile ago. I'll say the one thing that makes me think it's a bootleg and not a legit pressing is the fact that the pictures on the back insert are a bit blurrier than on the original pressing. Why would that be the case unless it was a scan rather than a print from the original file?
I have a ton of games listed at my store's site: Super Smash Video Games
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
Wow, that stockpile is pretty nice. If you do decide to sell em... sign me up. I'd take one, bootleg or not.
Wow, didn't even know that collection existed. I might have to pick one up myself if it's not too expensive on eBay.
greg wrote:That reminds me, I'll be going to Japan next month, and I will keep an eye out for the PSP version that comes bundled with the Galaxy Fraulein Yuna games. I already have those for the PCE, but I wouldn't mind getting the PSP bundle.
Wow, didn't even know that collection existed. I might have to pick one up myself if it's not too expensive on eBay.
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
So, do you have a couple dozen arcade cards to go with them?
We are prepared to live in the plain and die in the plain!
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
Hatta wrote:So, do you have a couple dozen arcade cards to go with them?
Haha, no.
I'm thinking of putting them all in the microwave and watching the sparks shoot across the discs. CDs look so awesome when you do that!
mobiusclimber wrote:I owned one of these CARE4DATE pressings awhile ago. I'll say the one thing that makes me think it's a bootleg and not a legit pressing is the fact that the pictures on the back insert are a bit blurrier than on the original pressing. Why would that be the case unless it was a scan rather than a print from the original file?
But if it really was a legit pressing down around 1999, I suspect that Hudson was not too concerned about the quality being top level. They might not even have had the original file around at that time, and therefore had to use a scan.
I'd say it is still up in the air if these are legit or not (but it is best to assume not, since there is not concrete proof that they are the real deal!).
Sales thread. Make offers! PC Engine and Famicom: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17892&p=197217#p197217.
My PC Engine/Turbografx-16 Guide: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39471&p=654857#p654857
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
greg wrote:dsheinem wrote:We also want to know how cheap you'll be selling these
That's what I was gonna say too. My only way of playing this on the PCE is my burned copy of the game. I wouldn't mind owning one of those discs. I'd pay $10 for one. If you wouldn't feel comfortable with that, even if it's just to cover shipping expenses and gas money for you to drive to the post office to mail one to me, I could send you something for one.
These are from someone over at pcenginefx. He basically gave them out for free asking for only a donation to cover what he picked them up for. I think he got them for 25 cents a piece or something. He wasn't profiting. He only picked them up to hook everyone in the community up with a great, hard to find, and otherwise expensive game.
If you see anyone selling these for more than postage you are being ripped off.
Re: PC Engine Sapphire
christoph wrote:greg wrote:dsheinem wrote:We also want to know how cheap you'll be selling these
That's what I was gonna say too. My only way of playing this on the PCE is my burned copy of the game. I wouldn't mind owning one of those discs. I'd pay $10 for one. If you wouldn't feel comfortable with that, even if it's just to cover shipping expenses and gas money for you to drive to the post office to mail one to me, I could send you something for one.
These are from someone over at pcenginefx. He basically gave them out for free asking for only a donation to cover what he picked them up for. I think he got them for 25 cents a piece or something. He wasn't profiting. He only picked them up to hook everyone in the community up with a great, hard to find, and otherwise expensive game.
If you see anyone selling these for more than postage you are being ripped off.
In other words, I am not selling them. I do realize you weren't really asking me to, but it should be made clear that these aren't made for sale. I really just thought it was a cool picture, especially if you imagine that these were original copies (which they are not).
Maybe I should request that people do not offer to buy these discs off me. I really cannot sell them for anything.
Sales thread. Make offers! PC Engine and Famicom: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17892&p=197217#p197217.
My PC Engine/Turbografx-16 Guide: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39471&p=654857#p654857