How do you get the BEST possible video out of a Saturn?

[elph]

The only time that a comb filter will come into play is when you take a composite source and split out RGB (or S-video). For example, Laserdisc players. On Laserdiscs, the video data is all stored together as a composite analog signal. So unless you have a super elite Laserdisc player (or an old TV), the comb filter in your TV is likely better than the one in the Laserdisc player. This doesn't affect your Saturn because the Chrominance and Luminance signals will begin life separately.

[lordofduct]

ah... good question. That all depends on how your S-vid signal is created. In the case of the Saturn and most consoles which receive direct RGB signals from it's actual hardware and encodes all your composite signals (to tell you the truth, composite isn't just your Red White Yellows... composite is for mixed signals. So RF, RCA composite, S-vid and component fall under the composite listing). When it is encoded it doesn't break an RCA composite signal into S-vid, it creates independant Luminance and Chroma signals from the RGB and then places then works with them from there to make all the variances.

So in the case of the Saturn, the S-vid isn't broken into itself, it is added to itself itself. The encoding chip creates luma and chroma through these and other general algorithms:

Y = 0.299 * R + 0.587 * G + 0.114 * B
U = 0.436 * (B - Y) / (1 - 0.114)
V = 0.615 * (R - Y) / (1 - 0.299)

or

Y = (( ( 66 * R + 129 * G + 25 * B + 128) >> 8 ) + 16);
U = ( ( -38 * R - 74 * G + 112 * B + 128) >> 8 ) + 128;
V = ( ( 112 * R - 94 * G - 18 * B + 128) >> 8 ) + 128;

Of course some older encoder chips don't do this, and instead create a complete composite signal and then tear out the Luma and Chroma from it. Usually by hardware makers that used out dated parts and wanted to upgrade their hardware, or in scenarios where they had specialized chips for RGB signalling and only had Composite in it as a little extra and decided to add further Composite options via another chip.

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As for your terminology... Comb Filter is not what breaks the luma and chroma up. What a comb filter in an NTSC set does is 'filter' and clean up the signal.

This is what it is all about. The NTSC standard was created to allow picture to be carried on a single open stream... called composite. May it be received from the air or through a wire. RF being the initial idea (radio frequency) as NTSC standard was meant for analog signalling (which is all RF... not the RF we commonly know as the screw in interconnect). The idea is that the signal is going to be received as Luma, Chroma, and usually even audio being all on the same signal. It then has to be decoded so the television can understand the signal. During this decoding a comb filter is utilized to lessen the cross talk of the signals.

Comb filter were then utilized further to remove cross talk of composite lines that were split on there own as they usually were still held close to each other in their wires (i.e. S-vid still is on one interconnect though it contains 4 wires inside weaved together... these 4 wires still cross talk though). Now of course a comb filter increases the quality... but it doesn't defunct the abilities of the source at all. It is just a helping hand... and a better more experienced helping hand is going to be better.

So the effect of your TVs comb filter has know effect on the actual signal from the Saturn... it only has an effect on the interconnects from the Saturn to the TV... usually for the positive. some people will say comb filters is an algorithm with faults because it sometimes cleans a signal of frequencies that were MEANT to be there. But hey... it does more good then bad, so go for the best ones out there.


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You may be asking yourself WHY oh WHY all this headache causing madness and why didn't we just go with RGB in the first place. Reason for that is that when the NTSC standard was upgraded to accept colour television they had to make it backwards compatible with B+W... so they had to use the YUV standard instead which inherently contains the B+W signal in it... Luma. So old TV sets just ignored the Chroma signals and gave a nice Luma signal.

[sv650touring]

So composite connections would only be superior to S-video under circustances where the S-vdeo signal itself had been derived from a composite signal (which doesn't happen in the Saturn)? That does make sense.

And the reason we don't have common RGB connections is because B&W TVs screwed everything up for us? DAMN THEM!!!


I really appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me. I think I could go get a job as a high-end entertainment center installer now.

[elph]

It sounds like you're confusing composite and component. Composite is where Luma and Chroma are put down one pair of wires. S-video is where Luma and Chroma each get a pair of wires. Component and RGB use a seperate pair of wires for Red, Green, and Blue.

[Mozgus]

After reading threads like this, I realize I have no future in this field. At least I can rest easy in that I know more than anyone working at any Best Buy, lol.

[metaleggman]

It sounds like you're confusing composite and component. Composite is where Luma and Chroma are put down one pair of wires. S-video is where Luma and Chroma each get a pair of wires. Component and RGB use a seperate pair of wires for Red, Green, and Blue.

No, he got it right. While what you said is true, the difference in quality is only there if the GPU/PPU outputs the signal in that format. That's why S-video on the NES wouldn't be better if you just split the signal. You need to actually output the S-video signal. This is also why most LaserDisc players S-video, while great at the time, is actually worse than what you can do with a TV's comb filter and the composite connection, as the S-video output was simply composite that was split and comb filtered, in no specific order. So he was actually right.

[sv650touring]

OK, so I picked up some Monster brand component cables for the old Xbox (under $10 shipped), and when I hooked them up I wasn't getting any picture (though I could tell something was hooked up). So I'm thinking "Lemme double-check that I have all 5 RCA plugs in the right jacks". That was the last polite thought I had on the subject.

Upon pulling the first RCA plug out, I ripped out the jack it was plugged into - and I am no mucle man. The 4 others went the exact same way and I don't give a crap any more. Screw Toshiba and their cheap jacks, screw Monster and their overly tight plugs. S-Video looks really good to me.

I know this is an Xbox question, but nobody reads those forums. I read that my TV will not display video from a non-interlaced source. If I tried to plug in my XBox over component and got no picture, could that be because it was outputting a 480p image that my TV didn't like?

[metaleggman]

OK, so I picked up some Monster brand component cables for the old Xbox (under $10 shipped), and when I hooked them up I wasn't getting any picture (though I could tell something was hooked up). So I'm thinking "Lemme double-check that I have all 5 RCA plugs in the right jacks". That was the last polite thought I had on the subject.

Upon pulling the first RCA plug out, I ripped out the jack it was plugged into - and I am no mucle man. The 4 others went the exact same way and I don't give a crap any more. Screw Toshiba and their cheap jacks, screw Monster and their overly tight plugs. S-Video looks really good to me.

I know this is an Xbox question, but nobody reads those forums. I read that my TV will not display video from a non-interlaced source. If I tried to plug in my XBox over component and got no picture, could that be because it was outputting a 480p image that my TV didn't like?

Actually, it honestly seems like it's completley Monster's fault. They have been known, as you said, to have extremely tight jacks.

What TV were you trying to use the progressive picture on? I'm certain that if it's an HDTV of somesort and the XBOX works on 480i, that it's the TV which is causing the problems.

[sv650touring]

I think it is MOSTLY Monster's fault, BUT the RCA jacks ripped out so easily that Toshiba is partly to blame. I now hate them both and will never be buying products from either one. Alright, maybe I will, but I will be prepared for this kind of thing.

The TV was model 36AF43, a 36" direct view 4:3 CRT, which only supports 480i/NTSC. I read in a review that it does not accept a non-interlaced input. I took this to mean it won't display anything. I was guesing that by using component output, the Xbox went into 480p mode or something, thereby causing a blank screen on the TV.

I'm sure I could fix the jacks, but lifting the TV requires at least 2 determined men.

Of course, the upshot is that now my original qestion was answered. FOR ME, the best picture I can get out of my Saturn is S-Video

[silenthill]

Please Help!
My Saturn push left the picture on the tv 4-5 centimeters. The original and the copied games has the same problem too. Anyone knows the solution?