Game collecting is not what it once was

[Ack]

A somewhat fair comparison, but in games like Team Fortress or WoW, you aren't really actively seeking the end of the game. You are just continuously playing it. But, yes, I am talking about making several attempts to clear the game on one credit, in which hundreds of hours of attempts/practice take place.

No, but you are seeking to both win and improve, hence why I think it's a fair comparison.

[dunpeal2064]

Its a fair comparison when discussing the method of the players, but I more meant specifically when it comes to time, and how long a game would take to beat.

The method for getting good at the games is very similar though, I agree with you there.

And @ Exhum. No hard feels man, was a fun convo to pass the morning. I get a little excited when we start that shmup talk, very passionate about the genre <3

[Jmustang1968]

I think there is a distinction between beating the game and getting end credits and actually mastering the game.

A 1 life run is basically just trying to master the game and playing the same stuff repeatedly. I could also argue that RPGs with NG+ or branching storylines could be even more hundreds of hours of play time.

You guys arent really comparing the same thing.

[Exhuminator]

You guys arent really comparing the same thing.

I agree. There is a difference between truly mastering a game and simply reaching its end credits. When I say "beat a game" I'm only referring to the latter.

[dunpeal2064]

Beating a shmup on one credit = beating an RPG

Scoring really well in a shmup = mastering an RPG, doing all NG+ stuff, etc.

We didn't even touch on scoring, we are just talking about simple 1 credit clear, which is the only way to beat these games that isn't borderline cheating.

You can bomb 37 times in Dodonpachi and still clear it in one credit, its FAR from mastery, more like a simple understanding and a bit of practice. Now, clearing both loops and scoring over 300m would be nearing mastery (Still not quite since the high score is like 700m)

[Jmustang1968]

Beating a shmup on one credit = beating an RPG

Scoring really well in a shmup = mastering an RPG, doing all NG+ stuff, etc.

We didn't even touch on scoring, we are just talking about simple 1 credit clear, which is the only way to beat these games that isn't borderline cheating.

You can bomb 37 times in Dodonpachi and still clear it in one credit, its FAR from mastery, more like a simple understanding and a bit of practice. Now, clearing both loops and scoring over 300m would be nearing mastery (Still not quite since the high score is like 700m)

I disagree, these are just arbitrary comparisons. Beating on 1 credit would be like saying restarting the RPG if you wipe your party instead of loading a save.

[dunpeal2064]

Nope, not the same at all. Some games are meant to end if you lose, and thus you restart. Some are not.

Its not an arbitrary restriction, or else shmup devs wouldn't often lock you out of more than half the content of the game simply for continuing. If you load a save in an RPG and the last boss never appears because of it, then the developer probably wanted you to restart once you died.

These games are designed to be played on one credit, as a base. Not at mastery level, but at the very basic level. Once you start popping in coins, you literally CANNOT LOSE. If you load a save in an RPG and are suddenly invincible, something would be wrong yes?

Mastery (Akin to mastering an RPG when you beat every super boss or play NG+ or whatever) comes in when you start playing these games for high score, or trying to unlock hidden loops, not just simply clearing the game on a credit. This is simply playing the game.

The only reason you get continues in home ports is because no one would play the games otherwise.

[Exhuminator]

You can run out of quarters at an arcade and then you can lose. Just like you can run out of Phoenix Downs in a Final Fantasy boss fight and then you can lose.

So it's more like...

beating a tough arcade shmup on 1 credit = beating a tough roguelike RPG on 1 life

That's a fairer analogy.

[dunpeal2064]

But doesn't running out of money seem like a silly way to determine whether one beat a game or not? Am I the best player because I have the most money? Thats silly.

This is more akin to IAPs, and buying your way through an RPG instead of beating it.



I would ask... how do you guys think a shmup should be played? Infinite credits?

and why do we keep mixing up 1 credit with 1 life? You get lives in shmups, and if you score you usually get more lives, and you get bombs which save your life, usually 3 per life. Its NOT a perfect run by any means to clear the game on one credit. Beating a tough roguelike on one life is probably harder, but I'm not familiar with roguelikes very much, so I would be out of place to really make a judgement on them.

[Opa Opa]

I would ask... how do you guys think a shmup should be played? Infinite credits?

I vote "play for fun", as foreign as a concept that might be in the hyper-competitive scene.